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ICE warm up and wear?


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24 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   pumafeet10

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 06:18 AM

Has anyone else thought about the wear that is being put on the ICE when it comes on for ev later, not warmed at all?  

 

Is there a good way to warm the engine, especially with oil that sits for months without being used?  Its 30 degrees here and it cant be good for any part of the ice to not be warmed up

 

The car is parked in an insulated garage but its only about 60 degrees at most when i get in to go

 

not sure what to do, and i know it wastes fuel but i want to extend the life of my engine and trans as long as possible









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#2 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 07:36 AM

Well, it does give you like 30 seconds or so where it will pretty much just keep the ice down towards idle unless you like hold the accelerator to the floor.

 

But, I agree, personally I try to either taper my pressure on the accelerator and/or otherwise give the accelerator a hard tap before I really need the ICE on to get it warming up so that I'm not hitting the highway with a frozen engine and then flooring it and having it trying to immediately hold 6K RPM's for a while...

 

To be clear, I'm not too worried about 2-3K RPM's after a minute, that should be pretty OK, but I'd at least like to see the temp gauge at the lower line before it holds on a lot higher than that...


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#3 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 06:22 PM

Stay light on the accelerator pedal until the engine has warmed up enough to take the load.  That would be my advice and what I do and honestly I never floor my car either so I'm never running the ICE any more than 3k rpms max, I try to stick to 2K unless there is a mountain I need to climb.

 

-=>Raja.



#4 OFFLINE   fredf

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 07:07 PM

I usually start it a little before going on the highway every day so it has some time to warm up before hitting 70 mph



#5 OFFLINE   ShoulderThingThatGoesUP

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 05:36 AM

I also try to start it before hitting the highway, but the car was built for switching on the engine and immediately having a substantial load so hopefully it's not too bad for it.



#6 OFFLINE   cr08

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 05:40 AM

Yeah. The car was designed with a safe transfer of power after a cold engine start. Even at moderate throttle above 2-2.5 bars of accel it'll tend to prefer, at least in my experience with my 2013, a 50/50 ICE/EV mix and even drop back to majority EV once you are at speed if the engine still isn't warmed up. About the only time you are going to have it go full ICE accel immediately is if you are going WOT.



#7 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 07:16 AM

^^^ Agreed, but the reason to stay slow or light on the gas until the ICE can take the load is to not discharge the HVB hybrid portion deeply and have to recharge it all the way back up.  That is less efficient than keeping it more charged.  Discharge/recharge is less efficient than keeping the ice running at highway speeds with the hybrid battery full.

 

-=>Raja.



#8 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 10:54 AM

Attached File  250watt OPH.jpg.JPG   103.76KB   0 downloadsOr you could stick on an oil pan heater and plug it in for an hour + before you leave so it's warmed up some. :smile2:

 

Paul



#9 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 07:28 PM

Wouldn't work well in the Energi Paul.  Generally speaking because you charge you Energi battery before you go and you need to drive a couple of miles to drop the battery from 100% down to 95%-92% before you really can start the engine.  And it could be longer if the highway is 10 miles away and you chose to drive EV power to get there first before using the engine.  BY that time a) some or all of that heat would be lost if its cold outside, and b) the amount of electricity you pay to warm up the engine (takes about 2.5 hours from what I understand to get to peak heat) may just as well cost as much as the gas you would spend when you fire up the engine to warm it up.

 

Makes more sense with the hybrid as you have to use the engine every time you leave the house, but with the Energi engine use is more "optional" and depends on where your trip takes you.

 

-=>Raja.



#10 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 08:00 AM

I wasn't thinking efficiency so much as having instant heat when you start out.  I guess if you use the electric heater you wouldn't have to use the ICE, but I don't know how well that works. Grill Covers do slow down the ICE cooling off.  Did I hear that the ICE comes on when temps drop below freezing? The HVB doesn't like to be used much when it gets real cold. :headscratch:

 

Paul



#11 OFFLINE   stolenmoment

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 08:34 AM

You don't get instant heat.  If you think of a traditional heater core being a heat exchanger between coolant and cabin air, the resistance heater heats up the ICE coolant in the heater core, which then heats the air for the vents (pretty much).  Very slow and inefficient.  At least the core is (I believe) valved off from the ICE when the ICE isn't up to temp.

 

I've never had the ICE come on when I'm in EV Now except when slowing down in L with a fully changed HVB, or if I select the defroster vents.

 

I always subvert the "automatic" cabin air routing by explicitly selecting vents with the buttons, it never seems to actually ventilate unless I do that.



#12 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 08:43 AM

Within parameters the ICE won't come on in EV Now mode with the climate control off.  But Climb a hill for too long or otherwise ask for like 3+ bars of power for a minute or two continuously and it will fire up. I believe if the outside temp gets much below 0F the ICe is likely to fire up to help the sluggish battery as well.

 

Agree that an oil pan heater wouldn't give you instant cabin heat, but would be in the right direction if you were planning on starting the ICE very shortly after unplugging it.

 

If you want to fire it up sooner(like I sometimes do given conditions, you can generally start the ICE, even with a pretty battery fully charged with a quick "put it to the floor" of the accelerator for a moment(maybe more likely with the heater on).  Once you get it down to 95%, generally any request of more than 2 bars will immediately kick it on.



#13 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 09:27 AM

Some points:

 

The block heater heats the oil, not the antifreeze.  Would help to warm up the engine quicker if you start it right away, but that's about it.

 

Electric heat heats only the heater core, not the entire radiator.  If you start the engine then it flushes the entire core into the radiator and circulates everything.  Used to be this case with the 2013 model (I have not verified it with the 2017 model), if you have the temp gage showing in my view, you can see it drop from 1/3 of the way up (with heater core hot from EV heat) down to nothing when the engine starts (due to circulating the entire coolant).  At that point the engine and HV heat will work at 5+ KWH to warm the coolant back up.

 

The engine will not start even as low at 0 F.  I have driven in 0F and used the entire battery with no heat on and the engine doesn't start.  It only started for me when it was -10 to -7F outside, then it kicked in suddenly after using about 1/3 of the HVB for no apparent reason.  Then ran mostly at idle for about 5 minutes on country roads speeds of 40mph or less then it quit.  Started again a little later once more for about 2 minutes and quit, and then I was able to use the rest of the battery.  I started at -10F and got to my destination at -7F.  This is the only time the ICE ran without the heat on.  If you turn on the heat then its a different story, will usually run if its below 30F normally unless you switch to EV mode that helps to lower the threshold but doesn't eliminate the possibility depending on the conditions.  Bottom line is that you can still drive 100% EV mode and use the entire battery if the temps are 0F or above (without heat of course just heated seats).

 

On the way home it was 17F later in the day and was like a cake walk I almost felt hot in the car without heat around noontime, compared to driving at negative numbers early morning that was tough even for me a hard core guy driving with no heat. 

 

I agree that grill covers would possibly slow down ICE radiator cooling, the car does have louvers that close but grill coverers are usually blocking everything in the front to hold the heat during the winter.  What I don't like is that if you use the engine more continuously then you can heat the engine more than normally with the cooling air blocked up.  For pulse and glide country roads should be OK as normally it doesn't get to full temp because of all the cycling anyways.

 

Best regards,

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 11 January 2019 - 09:34 AM.


#14 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 02:34 PM

First, the ICE is made of Aluminum which is a very good conductor of heat and I'm measuring the WT change of 35*F at the top of the cylinder head on top of the ICE. The oil pan temp could be 60-100*F greater than OT. When the ICE starts the hot oil circulates quickly warming up the ICE.  With block/oil pan heaters most of the temp change is in the first hour with max temp change at 2.5 hours. Using the BK/OP heaters it only takes a couple of blocks to get the WT to 128*F  where the ICE starts to run more efficiently, BTW coolant doesn't start circulating in the radiator until WT of 182*F when the thermostat starts to open, it's not fully open until 202*F.  Raja the reason your WT gauge drops so quickly when the ICE starts is because the ICE has more coolant/ mass( aluminum block) thermal capacity than the heater core.  If you used BK/OP heaters there would be a quick rise in WT instead of drop.  Just another reason to use Grill Covers, they help keep the heat in the ICE when temps are cold.

 

Just another reminder that Grill Covers don't block all the air going into the ICE, I use them almost all the time and use heater to cool down the WT when going up long grades if I need too. :smile2:

 

Paul 



#15 OFFLINE   Hackster

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 08:19 PM

^^^ Agreed, but the reason to stay slow or light on the gas until the ICE can take the load is to not discharge the HVB hybrid portion deeply and have to recharge it all the way back up.  That is less efficient than keeping it more charged.  Discharge/recharge is less efficient than keeping the ice running at highway speeds with the hybrid battery full.

 

-=>Raja.

I solved this "problem" by using the following approach. When I hit EV Later and the ICE kicks in, I immediately switch to Auto. When ICE is cold and under a moderate load, the ICE will continue running and the load will be split between electric motor and ICE for a period of time. After about 1 km, I switch to to EV Later, which sets the new battery level target (I typically "lose" 3-5% of the charge while going in Auto, depending on the season/weather), with the benefit of not having ICE charging the battery back up to the "original" level, which is inefficient. Been doing this quite successfully for over a year on my highway trips.  



#16 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 08:37 PM

^^^  Yes that's true you can cycle EV later back around (tap 3 times) at any time can be immediate or later when ICE takes the load though it might quit then and be interrupted but like you say the net result is that you reset the EV later set point to a lower level and lose some battery charge in the process.

 

This is sort of the reverse charge or discharge technique I have used sometimes to use up battery charge level while on the highway at higher speeds.  You know you can recharge the battery by cycling EV later when you are +1 or +2% or the setpoint, well you can also "discharge" the HVB by cycling EV later when you are minus 1, 2, or more % of the battery charge level.

 

I still prefer to stay light on the gas and start the engine at slower speeds, wait until it warms up before pushing the accelerator harder and maintaining a more charged battery.

 

-=>Raja.


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#17 OFFLINE   Hackster

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Posted 15 January 2019 - 08:16 PM

I used to cycle EV Later before, but found that my "new" approach of immediately switching to Auto works better for me, as it does not require close watching of the gauges to catch the exact moment when the ICE starts charging the battery (and the consumption spikes) to cycle the EV Later. Instead, I can go in the EV Auto, with both ICE and electric motor providing power, for as many kilometers as I like, and then switch to EV Later and avoid forced battery charging from the engine. And, sometimes, I actually leave it in EV Auto - I often have to do the trips that are just outside my EV range (by anywhere from 5 to 10 km) and by kicking off the ICE and immediately switching to EV Auto I can get those extra few kms of range with negligible fuel consumption, as the ICE never charges the battery at all.



#18 OFFLINE   pumafeet10

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 07:14 AM

Thanks everyone for the input, which is helpful, but still the idea of starting the ice, and the transmission for that matter from dead cold to cruising speeds is not good. I’m sure the engine ecu has protection programming that it won’t let the ice rev to high when cold but it is always better, mechanically speaking to drive a warmed up engine and trans, even with low viscosity fluids.

I just want the ice and trans to last, and when I say last, I mean be in immaculate shape, like all of my other cars mechanical systems

#19 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 07:20 AM

Well the transmission isn't going to be going from dead start to cruising speeds unless you've got the front wheels off the ground towing it with another vehicle at cruising speeds and then drop it on the ground.

 

As for the ice, it will generally operate as it sees fit, but it will still give you pretty much complete freedom after 30-60 seconds.  And I'm pretty sure if you DO put the accelerator to the floor and hold it there, even if the ICE wasn't running, it will start up and rev right up(it will take a while in EV Now mode).

 

 

Don't forget the other side of things where I've seen an article about someone who was getting major gunky/cludgy oil build up(like noticeable on the filler cap) and Ford's response was that they weren't using the ICE enough.  So, make sure you get it up to temp frequently enough as well(which can be easier said than done depending on your circumstances).

 

 

 

 

Thanks everyone for the input, which is helpful, but still the idea of starting the ice, and the transmission for that matter from dead cold to cruising speeds is not good. I’m sure the engine ecu has protection programming that it won’t let the ice rev to high when cold but it is always better, mechanically speaking to drive a warmed up engine and trans, even with low viscosity fluids.

I just want the ice and trans to last, and when I say last, I mean be in immaculate shape, like all of my other cars mechanical systems



#20 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 09:02 AM

Best to do what I do, start the ICE and stay low on the power demand for the first minute or two depending on OAT.  Try to pick an ICE starting spot where the road is flat.  Check the Engage screen and try to keep the ICE power = to the battery power.  If you demand more then it comes out of the battery and then the ICE needs to recharge it more.

 

Don't turn on the heat until you're warmed up on the coolant.  It may mean you need to go down the highway for a couple of miles before things are ready.  I also wait until I get to a downhill section before I pickup speed from 50-55 to 65-70 range.

 

Works for me.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 25 January 2019 - 09:03 AM.









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