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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Who's Energi has the weakest battery? My 2013 with 55K only has 3.1kw


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22 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   Tony_NC

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 07:57 AM

Morning Everyone,

 

Sure hope this hasnt been asked before.  

 

I have been lurking for a while learning a lot from from all your posts, thanks for sharing.

 

Even though I have an extended warranty, I might should have applied more of your experiences when I recently bought my 2013  with about 54k miles.

 

I currently get 14-15 miles per full charge.    I recently started noting the battery capacity indication after the battery has run down and the ice/hybrid portion kicks in.    3.1kw is about what it indicates most of the time.   Seems 3.3kw was highest ever.

 

Anyone else this low or lower? 

 

What can we gonna do about it?   The car is approximately 5 yrs old with approximately 3 yrs left on the battery warranty.   I am not hearing any warranty success stories regarding battery issues.  Perhaps I am looking in the wrong places?

 

Is there some way to force the cmax to recalculate what it has?  Is there some sort of balancing charge method?  Any other ideas or tips?

 

Thanks

Tony

 

 

 

 









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#2 OFFLINE   olidx

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 12:17 PM

I am sure that it has been discussed before, but there is no law firm that is taking on a class action lawsuit for CMax energi battery degradation?

Every single car appears to have excessive battery degradation - I think it would be fair for Ford to have a standard to measure against, such at less than 20% degradation at 8 years (capacity >5.9 kW available) for example.



#3 ONLINE   fredf

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 02:22 PM

If Ford was going to continue selling the CMAX they might do something like Nissan did with the Leaf.   I don't see a lot of Electric cars from Ford right now so no need to care about the warranty, or return customers right now.

They claim basically less than 25% loss after 8 years.

 

The limited Nissan LEAF® lithium-ion battery warranty includes coverage for defects in materials or workmanship for 8 years / 100,000 miles (whichever occurs first) miles as well as protection against capacity loss below 9 bars of capacity (out of 12) as shown on the LEAF’s capacity gauge for a period of 8 years / 100,000 miles (whichever occurs first). For complete information concerning coverage, conditions and exclusions, see your Nissan dealer and read the actual New Vehicle Limited Warranty booklet.



#4 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 02:35 PM

Ford's battery is 7.6kwh but you can only use about 5.5kwh out of it, maybe 5.6 or so and the most I've ever seen in 5.9 if you stretch it to the last drop of the hybrid battery which is excessive drain.

 

Assuming 5.6 at best, then a 25% loss would be 4.2kwh.

 

-=>Raja.



#5 OFFLINE   Tony_NC

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 07:24 AM

This is my third hybrid vehicle, I have had  the first series Prius which looked like a typical car in the early days.   I had an accord hybrid too, which did have the hvb battery swapped out during my ownership.    

 

I will say, the reason I sold the Accord was because of how the car performed after the battery replacement.     First off, the battery isnt brand new that honda provides, its barely refurbished imo.   Honda would look at returned hvb packs and replace ONLY the weak or defective cells.   They would balance charge the pack best they could and then drop it in your car.   But they werent finished.  They then modified the software in the car to not charge as high and then charge more often.  When coasting the software added so much more drag to the regenerative charge that the car acted like the brakes were being applied all the time.   Also, the software limited the amount and duration of EV assist the hvb would provide during daily driving.     I dont recall the exact mpg loss at the moment. but it was drastic.   They did all this to assure their refurbed battery would make it to the end of the warranty period which was about a yr away in my case.

 

Having had the total personality of the car ruined with the battery swap, I am concerned about how Ford may handle the problem when the time comes.    

 

this brings up another couple of questions/thoughts......

 

Can the C Max Energi  operate as the C Max hybrid?    Id say sure just never charge the battery.  Can the Energi battery be removed and can c max still used as a hybrid?   

Does anyone know if the pack can be rebuilt with brand new batteries? It seems a shame to place a refurbished pack back in the car with a bunch of old cells, even though I realize new cells can fail as well.

 

Last question for now...  is there a way to check the hybrid portion battery to knows its remaining capacity?

 

Tony


Edited by Tony_NC, 18 November 2018 - 08:25 AM.


#6 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 08:57 AM

Its all the same battery in the Cmax.  Hybrid version has a small battery, 1.6kwh, Energy has a larger battery. 7.6kwh.  Any degraded energi battery is better than a hybrid battery any day, as it will hold more charge and do more miles than hybrid battery alone, which is good for 1 to 2 miles max.

 

The Cmax cannot operate without a battery, you need something in there.  I would never rebuild a battery pack by replacing a weak cell here and there, practically speaking they are all worn out, sure your battery is good as the weakest cell but you replace that and the next weakest cell is around the corner.  If you're going to rebuild it then put all new cells, 84 of them.  

 

The hybrid battery operates in the range of 21.5 SOC down to 15.5 SOC in general.  Since its the same battery, if its degraded I'm sure the hybrid portion will also be degraded as a bad Energi battery will crash faster towards the end of a charge.  If you charge up your battery full, reset the trip meter, look at the leaf Icon battery charge % where it shows 100% in blue when you drive off, you can use this as a gage:

 

1.1kwh out of the battery you should be at around 86% with a new battery, older battery maybe 82%.

2.2kwh out of the battery (seen on the trip meter) should be around 62% to 60% shown.

3.3kwh out of the battery should be around 40% to 37%

4.4kwh out of the battery should be around 20% technically speaking, but could be as low as 12%.

5.5kwh out of the battery should be at 0% and perhaps into the hybrid portion some.

 

Do this test drive the while battery at 40mph or less, with no heat climate control off, and see what you get.  Post it back.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 18 November 2018 - 08:58 AM.


#7 OFFLINE   Tony_NC

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 10:54 AM

Reason I was asking Can the C Max operate without the Energi portion battery is so that I would know IF I could still run the car as a standard hybrid with just the hybrid battery in place  while the energi battery is being rebuilt.. OR is the car down for the count while the energi battery is removed.

 

I tend to run car at approx 50mph with only a couple stop lights when trying to evaluate my battery.   I can run the entire battery down or take the sum of the pieces and it stays 3.1 to 3.4.  Never higher, never been lower yet.   I realize the mileage count is too variable to bother with however never been over 15miles per charge.  I do not use the climate control, not until the energi battery is depleted.

 

Fortunately, the charge time is dynamic and the complete charge interval is proportionately less as the battery ages.  (meaning,  less time  to charge  a degraded battery which delivers  less  kw/ miles)



#8 OFFLINE   cr08

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 11:59 AM

There is only one battery. That is it. If removed, the entire car is dead. There is no separate 'hybrid' and 'Energi' batteries. It is just one single pack with the separation between plug-in-power and hybrid only power done in software.



#9 OFFLINE   Tony_NC

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 12:54 PM

Thank you for getting the single battery configuration through my thick skull.   When I bought it, I was told, and I believed there were two batteries(3 if you include the 12v). Now I know.

 

Thanks Raja and Cr08.    


Edited by Tony_NC, 18 November 2018 - 01:05 PM.


#10 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 02:48 PM

Two batteries, 12v battery and traction battery with 2 choices:

 

a) 1.6kwh installed in non plug in hybrid Cmax cars.

b) 7.6kwh installed in plug in Energi Cmax cars.

 

Option b gives 5.5kwh to be driven on EV mode, and then goes into hybrid mode.  Option a you're starting the engine for every trip.

 

Both a and b sit in the trunk.  b is bigger than a so the rear deck is raised to accommodate b.

 

Always buys a b car instead of a, as you have many more options to choose from and you can skip gas on local trips.

 

-=>Raja.



#11 OFFLINE   John A Smith

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 02:09 PM

My 2014 C-Max Energi is 4 1/2 years old with about 70k miles.  When I bought it new I got at least 21 miles on a full charge and it could even approach 30 miles while babying the drive.  Now the most I get is 14 miles on a full charge.   Same location, same trips and with ideal outdoor temperatures.  My Ford dealer service dept agreed that my battery should be doing better.  They suggested that I leave it for a diagnostic at a fee of $150.  When I asked what the criteria was for getting the battery replaced they had no idea.  So I asked, "you're saying that I could spend $150 only to be told that a 40% loss in battery capacity in 4 1/2 years is normal?"  I think there should be a guide in the warranty telling what the future battery capacity is guaranteed to be.  10% loss per year, really?  My battery is supposed to be warranted for 10 years or 150,000 miles in California.  When do I have a warranty claim if there's no guide?   



#12 OFFLINE   Billyk24

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 02:49 PM

I have a 2005 Ford Escape Hybrid and this past June got a 2017 C-Max Energi.   My Escape Hybrid normally would perform an automatic battery calibration around every 10,000 miles.   Does the C-Max do the same?  Or can it be forced to do such? Is there a way to read the cells of the hybrid battery pack via a 3rd party hardware and then force such an action?   Wouldn't such maintenance be helpful? 



#13 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 03:04 PM

 

Wouldn't such maintenance be helpful? 

 

 

No, helpful for what?  The battery cells do get balanced with every charge.  There are limits to how much you can discharge them though I think sometimes you can draw too much current from the battery and make it hard on it being so small.  Its not a tesla battery running the car, its less than 1/10th the size in general.

 

The truth of the matter is that all batteries degrade.  Some will be worse than others depending on user treatment.  You can buy a car and the previous owner doesn't charge the car habitually and the battery is good.  The next person you buy the car from he uses battery all the time and tries to minimize gas burning and his battery is more worn down.  Yet the third person lives in Florida and its always hot and hotter down there and they are charging and using the battery daily, even harder conditions.

 

At the end of the day you need to treat your battery with a priority that helps it last the longest.  Nothing lasts forever, not even your cell phone battery or any other battery.  The warranty thing is tough, I don't see Ford replacing a battery from usage and/or wear and tear.  If the battery was to leak, break or something like that, then there is talk about that.  But telling them you used the battery and it wore down is going to be tough to get a free replacement, IMHO.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 22 November 2018 - 03:05 PM.


#14 OFFLINE   Billyk24

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 03:11 PM

On what you stated:  ( https://insideevs.co...9ENVFNBHCnq3L8)

 

 

Battery degradation strongly depends on temperature, and many plug-in electric vehicle applications employ thermal management strategies to extend battery life. The effectiveness of thermal management depends on the design of the thermal management system as well as the battery chemistry, cell and pack design, vehicle system characteristics, and operating conditions.

We model a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle with an air-cooled battery pack composed of cylindrical LiFePO4/graphite cells and simulate the effect of thermal management, driving conditions, regional climate, and vehicle system design on battery life.

We estimate that in the absence of thermal management, aggressive driving can cut battery life by two thirds; a blended gas/electric-operation control strategy can quadruple battery life relative to an all-electric control strategy; larger battery packs can extend life by an order of magnitude relative to small packs used for all-electric operation; and batteries last 73–94% longer in mild-weather San Francisco than in hot Phoenix. Air cooling can increase battery life by a factor of 1.5–6, depending on regional climate and driving patterns. End of life criteria has a substantial effect on battery life estimates.”



#15 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 03:37 PM

Exactly what I said, that article agrees with my post.  Its a small battery, don't drain it hard, don't over heat it, all kinds of things make a difference.  I posted on how to extend your battery life and listed a bunch of things you can do to make things last longer - search here you'll find that post.  Hope it helps people get a longer life out of their battery packs. 

 

Folks, its not plug it in every time you get home and forget it, that's not the right methodology.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 22 November 2018 - 03:38 PM.


#16 OFFLINE   jzchen

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 09:54 PM

Raja, there’s got to be a way to program your care parameters into the car. There has to be. I wish I still had ours to try to sort it out somehow. Still have the ELS27, just no C-MAX.....

#17 OFFLINE   ArizonaEnergi

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 03:28 PM

Exactly what I said, that article agrees with my post.  Its a small battery, don't drain it hard, don't over heat it, all kinds of things make a difference.  I posted on how to extend your battery life and listed a bunch of things you can do to make things last longer - search here you'll find that post.  Hope it helps people get a longer life out of their battery packs. 

 

Folks, its not plug it in every time you get home and forget it, that's not the right methodology.

 

-=>Raja.

 

Raja, I've seen your recommendation for not plugging it in every time, partially charging, running in ICE mode, etc., and believe that would make a difference in battery life.  However, I'm now at nearly 6 years and have not been doing it.  I'm getting 18-19 miles on a charge if driving carefully.  It use to be 22 or more.  (Only have 22,000 miles on it.)   So is it too late to start your best-practices behavior?  Thanks, Pat


Edited by ArizonaEnergi, 02 December 2018 - 03:31 PM.


#18 OFFLINE   astrand1

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 10:43 AM

mine has 61k on it (2014) and the best I can get is 4.2kwh which shows 14 miles sometime 16. So according to rbort I’m at a 25% loss. I think I’m going to start beating fords door to try for a replacement. I don’t have high hopes but it’s worth a try.

#19 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 08:43 PM

Hi Pat:

 

Sorry for the late reply, I was driving to FL the last couple of days.  Here in the south now.  Its warm again and I have to think about the HV battery temperature once more.  Thankfully a cold front is rolling in, I like that for my battery :)

 

Its never too late I suppose to learn or do the right stuff versus not paying attention to it and just doing whatever.  Like I said before, the damage is additive, a little at a time over time it adds up enough to be noticed.  Please read my best practices advice and if you have any specific questions please let me know.

 

All the best and if any of you are down here in Florida maybe we could meet up for a coffee or such while I'm in the area :)

 

-=>Raja.



#20 OFFLINE   ArizonaEnergi

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 06:02 AM

Thanks Raja for your excellent advice, and I plan to start practicing it, as I'd like to keep the car, and its current battery capacity,  until a reliable, less expensive, self-driving EV/PHEV car comes out to drive me around safely in my old-age.










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