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Winter weather car pre-heating


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48 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   cr08

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 09:20 AM

Seat heaters are not counted in the climate display. Climate display is only going to show the A/C compressor or electric heat power draw directly off the HVB. Seat heaters are still 12V powered and is going to be lumped in the 'Other' energy draw gauge. Both seats are fused at 20A each so that's a max draw of around 240W a piece at 12V or about a 0.75A draw on the HVB not counting for conversion efficiencies. Seat heaters are also PTC so once they start warming up to the desired temp the power draw greatly reduces.









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#22 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 09:29 AM

Nice job Scott.  If you dress warm enough you'll soon find out you don't need to waste the car's battery on heat.  Seat heaters are nice and they draw very little.  The 2 to 3 mile drop is also because of the cold.  In the summer you get a 2 to 3 mile drop when using the AC over the entire battery.  I think seat heaters are alot less than the AC, which draws 2500-3000 watt to start and settles around 600w when the car is cooled down.  Heat uses over 5000 watt to start and settles around 2000-3000 watt to continue once the coolant is warmed up some.  Fan speed makes a big difference also.  I decided long time ago (back in 2013/2014 winter) that I'm not wasting battery on heat I only use heat if the engine is warm.  Remember you want the battery to last the longest possible throughout the life of the car.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 26 October 2018 - 09:30 AM.


#23 OFFLINE   Billyk24

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Posted 27 October 2018 - 05:33 PM

Cold feet?  What type of material are you using with the socks?  Or would you like trying a thin layer of wicking material next to the skin and over this a different sock?  Often means sneakers can be worn.   I also have an outdoor exercise history including nordic skiing marathons.   Sitting/driving in a cold car in dark weather is a no-no for me. 



#24 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 28 October 2018 - 05:47 AM

Cold feet?  What type of material are you using with the socks?  Or would you like trying a thin layer of wicking material next to the skin and over this a different sock?  Often means sneakers can be worn.   I also have an outdoor exercise history including nordic skiing marathons.   Sitting/driving in a cold car in dark weather is a no-no for me. 

 

Generally speaking I can keep my feet warm even in my preferred minimal footwear in the cold and to a lesser degree the wet as long as I'm out running and my feet are flexing and the blood is flowing.  Same with hands.  As long as I'm using them, they stay warm enough.  But, once I'm sitting still or even walking with hiking boots, it seems there's not enough movement there.  Seemingly a bit before others.  I know my digits got quite painfully cold more than once as a kid, so it's possible I've got some bit of damage/less than perfect workings in them.

 

I've got quite a number of different gloves/socks, etc. that I try to tailor to circumstances.  My only compression socks are toe socks so I might pick up a pair of non-toe compression socks to see if they help at all on the bike in the cold which is what I was lacking last winter.  Had a hard time keeping my feet warm for too long at too much below around 20F.  Again, the feet aren't really flexing as much there on the pedals.  And the wind is increased.

 

 

Also on Raja's not about the heater dropping down to 2-3KW after it warms up, I'd say that's true at my current temps just over freezing, but I recall a number of times last year where when it's actually cold, that heater is just constantly maxed out.  Though that was in EV mode, so in Auto, the ICE would have already kicked in to help out.



#25 OFFLINE   Billyk24

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Posted 28 October 2018 - 09:05 AM

Been riding bicycles (as an adult-20y/o+) since the mid to late 70's.   Continue to participate in triathlons.  Use of booties or toe warmers covering the shoe is the way to go when the temperature drops.  I now prefer using my Kickr smart indoor trainer during the colder months.



#26 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 29 October 2018 - 05:07 AM

Been riding bicycles (as an adult-20y/o+) since the mid to late 70's.   Continue to participate in triathlons.  Use of booties or toe warmers covering the shoe is the way to go when the temperature drops.  I now prefer using my Kickr smart indoor trainer during the colder months.

Nice.  I've done more running, but only started that about 6 years ago.

My bike riding has been intermittent for basically forever, but only started to get some slightly better quality bikes in the past few years.  I did a few tours for the first time this past year. No races yet.  Got a fat bike a couple years ago and that's fun to take out in the snow.



#27 OFFLINE   GlennR

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Posted 29 October 2018 - 05:55 AM

I have to admit I don't work very hard to preserve battery life. To charge my battery from empty to full costs about 70 cents Canadian when taking advantage of value charging. I have a 120-volt charge cord and that gets the car defrosted so my wife doesn't have to clean off the windows. That's enough for me. My wife's commute is short so the seat heater is typically enough but she'll turn up the climate controls without a thought to be comfortable and that seems the right way for us to enjoy some savings while staying warm. 

 

We have saved a lot of money with C-Max over the turbo PT Cruiser we sold when we bought the C-Max. It's a double savings with the electric motor boost coupled with no longer having to buy premium gas. Perhaps that's why I've never been too concerned as I feel I'm saving lots of money already. My biggest concern is simply getting service on Max once Ford no longer produces the model. I've been stuck before with other manufacturers and it is never fun to have to service something the technicians don't get any priority training on. 



#28 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 29 October 2018 - 06:19 AM

My biggest concern is simply getting service on Max once Ford no longer produces the model. I've been stuck before with other manufacturers and it is never fun to have to service something the technicians don't get any priority training on. 

 

Ha, from any of my dealership experiences, I'm not sure I could see how they could do a lot worse than the usual responses I've gotten of "There is no problem.", "You're wrong.",  "We can't do that." or "We don't know."  But you're probably right, they will somehow figure out how to become worse.  Though, they are still making the Fusion Energi so they should theoretically still be familiar with most everything on the vehicle one way or the other as there shouldn't be too many bits that are truly unique to the C-Max.



#29 OFFLINE   stolenmoment

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Posted 30 October 2018 - 04:35 AM

I run the seat heater at 1 (otherwise it gets too hot!), and I *think* it ticks the meter up by one pixel or so, and I think it's not counted as "climate"; watch the lower bar next time you fiddle with it.

 

Yes, the cabin heater can suck as much juice as the motor until it warms up.  If I *really* need cabin heat, I just turn on the ICE, sadly.



#30 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 30 October 2018 - 07:34 AM

 If I *really* need cabin heat, I just turn on the ICE, sadly.

 

Why sadly?  Every other car you have driven you have to turn on the ice to move it.  Heat comes as a bi-product of running the engine.

 

In this case you have two complete propulsion systems, engine and HVB plus two ways to make heat, engine and electric probe like a water heater.

 

Electric heat has always been expensive, even in your house.  It is what it is.

 

I just choose to not use the HVB to make heat.  You can run the engine to make heat, once warmed up, you can continue on battery until the coolant temp drops, then run the engine some more to make more heat, and then go back to battery for driving.  That's if you need heat and want to add some engine use into the mix.

 

-=>Raja.



#31 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 30 October 2018 - 07:38 AM

Electric heat has always been expensive, even in your house.  It is what it is.

 

-=>Raja.

 

Ehh, except that electric heat is 100% efficient, so it's still better than using fossil fuels, even in your house.  Better yet when it's still cheaper and it comes from Niagara Falls like in my case.  Better yet is what Toyota and some others are doing and using heat pumps to get that electric heat well more than 100% efficient. (Again, just like I have in my house)



#32 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 30 October 2018 - 07:49 AM

Efficient?  Electric heat is much more expensive than gas heat for example.  If you heat your house with electricity, you're looking at hundreds of dollars a month to heat the house.  If you heat it with gas its also hundreds, but less than 1/2.  I spend like $100 to $200 to heat the house with natural gas in the winter.  Last winter it started out as $118 for the first month, $220 was the peak for the coldest month.  If I used electricity it would be alot more than that, plus, the electric company raises the rates for electricity in the winter time.

 

I do have solar panels, but I choose to not use electricity and get paid for the excess that I don't use at the higher rates, and then I can use that money to pay the gas bill.  Trust me its cheaper than heating the house with electric to cut down the gas bill.

 

Sure electric is free out of the sun, but they still charge you to provide it and I don't have enough panels to cover heat during the winter.  I barely break even as it is for the other stuff in the house including two EV cars that need to be charged often.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 30 October 2018 - 07:49 AM.


#33 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 30 October 2018 - 07:57 AM

Efficient?  Electric heat is much more expensive than gas heat for example.  If you heat your house with electricity, you're looking at hundreds of dollars a month to heat the house.  If you heat it with gas its also hundreds, but less than 1/2.  I spend like $100 to $200 to heat the house with natural gas in the winter.  Last winter it started out as $118 for the first month, $220 was the peak for the coldest month.  If I used electricity it would be alot more than that, plus, the electric company raises the rates for electricity in the winter time.

 

I do have solar panels, but I choose to not use electricity and get paid for the excess that I don't use at the higher rates, and then I can use that money to pay the gas bill.  Trust me its cheaper than heating the house with electric to cut down the gas bill.

 

Sure electric is free out of the sun, but they still charge you to provide it and I don't have enough panels to cover heat during the winter.  I barely break even as it is for the other stuff in the house including two EV cars that need to be charged often.

 

-=>Raja.

 

Yeah, you're talking 2 different things.  Just cause it's efficient doesn't mean it's cheap.  Our cars running on electric are much more efficient than on gas, but if the price of gas is $1/gallon and you pay 18 cents/KWH for electric then gas is cheaper.

 

Which is why I stated that it's all the better if you're circumstances are similar to mine.  I pay an extra cent per kwh to have all my electric renewable which comes from Niagara falls.  Even with that and the monthly charges tossed in I pay a total of 10 cents per kwh for electric.  And it doesn't change for time of day or time of year.

 

So yes, in my case, our electric baseboards are cheaper than fossil fuels to heat with.  The downside is that when we look at things like Geothermal and solar, the payback time is measured in decades since we pay so little.  Our leaky 2000 sq ft home costs a few thousand dollars a year to heat.  We just looked at things again for thermal storage and we've looked at the possibilities of a wood stove, pellets, etc.  Yes, they'd be cheaper, but not by a lot and they are a lot more work.(not more work for thermal storage. That one would also cut our electric rates in half for it's usage, but it's still a long time to pay it back).

 

 

Again, I'm not saying that holds true for everyone, just saying that electric is more efficient and for *me*, it's cheaper.  But I know there are lots of places that's not the case.



#34 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 30 October 2018 - 08:29 AM

10 cents a kwh and you pay an extra cent for renewable energy, that's unheard of these days just about (9 cents per kwh).  Is that delivered cost or just the KWH and then you have to add all the delivery charges?  You're certainly lucky in that sense in your area.

 

Here in Boston its more like 18.7 cents per kwh at the cheapest rate.  Right now its 20 cents per kwh and that doesn't include any delivery charges.  I don't have those on my bill as I'm solar and they actually pay me 20 cents per kwh for whatever I give them back.  They, of course, do not pay me for delivery charges but will charge me delivery charges if I use any kwh.

 

Last winter it was 22 cents per kwh (without delivery costs which will add about 5 cents per kwh), and during the summer its as low as 18.7 cents per kwh.

 

On the good news side I get paid more per kwh for solar during the winter, when I make less energy so that helps give me more money.

 

Also on the good news in MA you can get SRECs and with that payback for solar is less than 5 years if you include the electric cost savings, if you don't its right at the 5 year mark.  I got solar in 2013 and I have received all my initial investment back as of this past summer.  Now I'm in the green finally.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 30 October 2018 - 08:30 AM.


#35 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 30 October 2018 - 08:35 AM

10 cents a kwh and you pay an extra cent for renewable energy, that's unheard of these days just about (9 cents per kwh).  Is that delivered cost or just the KWH and then you have to add all the delivery charges?  You're certainly lucky in that sense in your area.

 

-=>Raja.

 

That's roughly the cost if I take the entire monthly bill and divide it out.  I think individually they say something like 5.5 cents per hour delivery and 3 cents per hour usage or some such thing.

 

We're part of a rural electric co-op.

 

Which is the other downside for solar.  They only pay their cost (3 cents per hour) to buy back solar.  So, there's kinda a thin line of where things might make sense as far as the fact that we'd either want like a small system we'd never over-make electricity on(which therefore wouldn't save us all that much), or we'd get a huge system to try to make up part(would have to be able to generate close to 200 amps to make up our peak usage - there's no gas to our house, it's electric everything) of our winter usage and then we'd be not getting paid much at all the rest of the year as we're hemorrhaging electric.



#36 OFFLINE   cr08

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Posted 30 October 2018 - 09:07 AM

Our electric here is pretty cheap as well in Columbus with AEP. If memory serves we pay about 7.5c/kwh. With our average usage of about 1200kwh/mo we see about 50/50 generation/delivery on our bill so all in about 15c/kwh equivalent still, maybe a little less. No ToU, just flat rate 24/7/365. We are also an all electric household so winter we may see more kwh use and the overall rate will skew a little lower. Usually total bill costs we average about $160/mo in mild months. This past winter when we had the major cold snaps I think we edged a little over $200 and MAYBE maxed out at $250 but that was a rarity. We have a heat pump that works down to around the teens with resistance heat backup.

 

I've done the calculations many times even before I set foot in this car and taking one full charge a day if I totally deplete the battery, 5 days a week, an average of 4 weeks a month, it costs me about $9-10/mo extra at the 7.5c rate. If I include weekends and say a solid 30 days at one charge a day that's still only around $13.50/mo.



#37 OFFLINE   stolenmoment

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Posted 30 October 2018 - 01:27 PM

Why sadly?  Every other car you have driven you have to turn on the ice to move it.  Heat comes as a bi-product of running the engine.

 

[ ... ]

 

I just choose to not use the HVB to make heat.  You can run the engine to make heat, once warmed up, you can continue on battery until the coolant temp drops, then run the engine some more to make more heat, and then go back to battery for driving.  That's if you need heat and want to add some engine use into the mix.

 

-=>Raja.

 

Sadly, because I *hate* burning gasoline.  I was going to buy an off-lease Leaf, but my wife's extreme range anxiety ruled that out, and she's got enough to worry about.  The ~600 miles in my Energi's gas tank frees her from worry, but I can do my daily commute all on battery.  If I could mount another Energi battery in parallel with the current one, for a reasonable price, I'd do that, and I could get through my weekends on battery, too.



#38 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 30 October 2018 - 10:36 PM

I don't want to say it the wrong way, but if you don't want to burn gasoline you got the wrong car.  You should have gotten an all electric like the Chevy Bolt for example, about the same room inside and 200 miles of range probably in winter.

 

With this car its perfect because you have the option for both, and you can easily net 2 to 3 times MPG of a gas only car.  Don't try to go 100% battery all the time, use some gas, after all, you did buy an engine also.  If you just use the battery you're going to wear it out and the pistons are going to rust...!

 

-=>Raja.



#39 OFFLINE   fredf

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Posted 31 October 2018 - 03:44 AM

Ehh, except that electric heat is 100% efficient, so it's still better than using fossil fuels, even in your house.  Better yet when it's still cheaper and it comes from Niagara Falls like in my case.  Better yet is what Toyota and some others are doing and using heat pumps to get that electric heat well more than 100% efficient. (Again, just like I have in my house)

Electric resistance heating is 100% energy efficient in the sense that all the incoming electric energy is converted toheat. However, most electricity is produced from coal, gas, or oil generators that convert only about 30% of the fuel's energy into electricity.

https://www.energy.g...istance-heating

 

Electric heat is 100% but as anyone that has electric heat or a heat pump with electric coils will tell you it can get very expensive and part of that is most electric baseboard heat just does not move the air.



#40 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 31 October 2018 - 03:45 AM

Electric resistance heating is 100% energy efficient in the sense that all the incoming electric energy is converted toheat. However, most electricity is produced from coal, gas, or oil generators that convert only about 30% of the fuel's energy into electricity.

https://www.energy.g...istance-heating

 

Electric heat is 100% but as anyone that has electric heat or a heat pump with electric coils will tell you it can get very expensive and part of that is most electric baseboard heat just does not move the air.

 

Yep, you've got it exactly.  It all depends on your situation.  In mine, we're all electric and part of an electric co-op and it's efficient and cheaper and doesn't come from fossil fuels.  But I fully realize others don't have the same.










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