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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Energi Battery Recharge Idea

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11 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   dfpinrenton

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Posted 09 September 2018 - 11:56 AM

I recharge my RV's house batteries with the alternator while on the road.  Has this possibility been considered for the Energi option?

 

David









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#2 OFFLINE   Billyk24

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Posted 09 September 2018 - 06:16 PM

I recharge my RV's house batteries with the alternator while on the road.  Has this possibility been considered for the Energi option?

 

David

 

There is no alternator with the Ford Hybrid vehicles.   There is two generators MG1 and MG2 that work at recharging the hybrid battery.



#3 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 05:17 AM

Yeah, I think what you're actually interested in would be an option to recharge the big battery up in the EV portion while driving.  It's strictly a software restriction.  Some PHEV's offer this functionality but not Ford.

 

You CAN do it if you really want to monkey with the car while driving...  The trick is to not let the battery get below 0% in the EV portion, then you put it in EV Later mode to hold it there, but get it to go up 1%(either by coasting or keeping the ICE at around 2K revs If I remember correctly), then when you get 1% higher than the EV Later set point you cycle through Auto, EV and back into EV Later so that it now says that EV Later is set to 1% higher than it was before.  And repeat.

 

Note that this is likely not going to be beneficial to your energy usage(you'll probably spend more $ to burn more gas to recharge the batteries than you would by plugging them in).  But depending on your circumstances, it's possible you might eke out an advantage somehow if you were cruising down the highway for hours and just wanted some more battery for some slow city driving later...



#4 OFFLINE   fotomoto

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 06:09 AM

  Has this possibility been considered for the Energi option?

 

The idea has been discussed since the PHEV design has been around.  The answer has been it's cheaper and more efficient to charge from wall power than gasoline.  But..... this is changing with more fuel efficient ICE designs.  Toyota does allow ICE recharging on its new Prime.  



#5 OFFLINE   spirilis

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 07:42 AM

Well I suppose if your RV's alternator is powerful enough to supply 12A at 120VAC via inverter in addition to everything else, you could wire up the trickle charger to your C-Max Energi while towing it?  No idea if that conflicts with its ability to be towed...

(Alas, it definitely defeats the purpose of the environmental friendliness of the vehicle, by using a fairly inefficient oil-based fuel source to stuff the battery instead of relying on the C-Max's own atkinson cycle engine w/ gasoline or the power grid with its mix of high and low-carbon fuels + steam turbine economies of scale)


Edited by spirilis, 10 September 2018 - 07:44 AM.


#6 OFFLINE   dfpinrenton

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 10:31 AM

Thanks for all the feed back as I am new to the Cmax.  I did not realize that it did not have an alternator.  The alternator on my RV is 175 Amps and I have 600 watts of solar.  I am just trying to figure out the range of alternatives that I have at hand.

 

David



#7 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 10:40 AM

Thanks for all the feed back as I am new to the Cmax.  I did not realize that it did not have an alternator.  The alternator on my RV is 175 Amps and I have 600 watts of solar.  I am just trying to figure out the range of alternatives that I have at hand.

 

David

 

I guess I'm still a bit confused as to what you're trying to accomplish...

 

If you ARE thinking of towing your C-Max behind your RV and charging it while on the road then if you actually have 175 amps available and a large enough 120V inverter then yes, theoretically you could probably charge your C-Max while driving.  However, I would again say that you'd probably be better off money wise by just driving the C-Max on gas if you can't plug it in to a normal outlet.



#8 OFFLINE   spirilis

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 10:58 AM

Thanks for all the feed back as I am new to the Cmax.  I did not realize that it did not have an alternator.  The alternator on my RV is 175 Amps and I have 600 watts of solar.  I am just trying to figure out the range of alternatives that I have at hand.

 

David

Well this is not totally accurate, the Energi has an onboard high-voltage generator (the smaller of 2 electric motors in the transmission is the sun gear of a planetary gearset, with the engine occupying the yoke that connects the 4 planet gears around it; the larger of the 2 electric motors is also employed to charge the HV battery during regenerative braking), and it has a solid-state DC/DC converter under the engine hood that can utilize high-voltage DC (battery or output from the generators when they're producing) to generate up to 150A (? I think) at 14VDC for powering the low-voltage 12V system and charging the 12V battery.  The engine will charge the battery when the Ford PCM firmware decides it's appropriate to do so, that's how hybrids work.

 

But it has no programming that allows you to intentionally charge the high-voltage battery beyond a certain range around its hybrid "set point".  To charge the HV battery to full, you have to use the EV charging port, which employs the onboard AC/DC charging circuit (air-cooled and located within the HV battery case in the trunk, fwiw).

 

The solid-state DC/DC converter mentioned essentially occupies the same function as the alternator in an RV, it's a 12V generator driven by the main engine "fuel" (HV DC in this case, but as mentioned, HV DC can be produced by the gasoline engine when needed or produced opportunistically by the larger EV motor running as a generator for regenerative braking, when you are intending to slow down the vehicle).


Edited by spirilis, 10 September 2018 - 11:01 AM.


#9 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 11:40 AM

Here is a simple idea, can you plug a 2000w inverter to your RV 12v battery and plug the Cmax 120v charger into it?  Then while you drive down the road your alternator would replenish the 12v battery and the inverter would supply 120v/1400w to recharge the Cmax HVB.  Would take about 6 hours to recharge it from empty.  

 

As for recharging the HVB using the ICE, Mini cooper also allows this but the ICE gets 24.8mpg while recharging the HVB and if its not then it gets 37-38 mpg on the highway at 65mph.  You're taking a 13mpg cut to recharge the HVB in that car.   Here is my quote from the Mini Forum:

 

"The car, at 65mph, nets around 37-38mpg in that range, that is, if its not recharging the battery. Save battery mode recharges the battery up to 91% but also drops the MPG by 12-13mpg. I tried it on the way back and net 24.8mpg at 65mph. The battery charged to 91% in about 45 miles. I was able to drive back home on the 91% on the side roads the 20 miles got home with 7% battery at night with headlights, and that brought the trip average to 36.2 mpg. Still lower than just using the engine without recharging the HVB.

 

Bottom line is, save battery mode should only be used if the battery is full or very close to it, so you don't charge much to get to 90-91%. If its drained forget about that option just drive fast enough on the highway to not waste the remaining battery, 65mph CC works. On the way up I did get 56.5 mpg, including the battery charged from home. I think I would have net closer to 40mpg if I had not recharged the battery and used it on the way back."

 

The Cmax is more efficient than the Mini and can manage over 6 miles per kwh, the Mini less than 5 miles per kwh, so the "recharge battery" option with the Cmax would be better than with the Mini for sure.

 

-=>Raja.


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#10 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 11:46 AM

You know, if we're really talking about the easiest way to recharge your C-Max behind an RV, you could just tow it with all 4 wheels on the ground and with it in the "ON"(ready to drive position) with the Transmission in D.  The only more complicated parts would be dealing with the steering and knowing when it was fully charged.  If you want it charged Quick, just leave the transmission in L and then you'll know when it's full when you hear the C-Max engine start spinning.  But that wouldn't be the most battery friendly version.  (:



#11 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 01:50 PM

I wouldn't do that, its a much faster charge rate and its very hard on the HVB.  You start pumping 100 amps into that battery instead of 3 at 120v  or 9 at 240v and just think about the heat buildup on the pack.  Several charges like this will probably shorten the life of the pack, especially in the summer when its alredy hot outside.  

 

Plus its not "safe" to leave the car in D powered on.  It can be pushing the trailer while stopped if you don't have the parking brake or your foot on the brake.  I realize its not pushing alot, but its still pushing.  

 

-=>Raja.


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#12 OFFLINE   dontfret

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Posted 13 September 2018 - 09:37 AM

Here is a simple idea, can you plug a 2000w inverter to your RV 12v battery and plug the Cmax 120v charger into it?  Then while you drive down the road your alternator would replenish the 12v battery and the inverter would supply 120v/1400w to recharge the Cmax HVB.  Would take about 6 hours to recharge it from empty.  

 

As for recharging the HVB using the ICE, Mini cooper also allows this but the ICE gets 24.8mpg while recharging the HVB and if its not then it gets 37-38 mpg on the highway at 65mph.  You're taking a 13mpg cut to recharge the HVB in that car.   Here is my quote from the Mini Forum:

 

"The car, at 65mph, nets around 37-38mpg in that range, that is, if its not recharging the battery. Save battery mode recharges the battery up to 91% but also drops the MPG by 12-13mpg. I tried it on the way back and net 24.8mpg at 65mph. The battery charged to 91% in about 45 miles. I was able to drive back home on the 91% on the side roads the 20 miles got home with 7% battery at night with headlights, and that brought the trip average to 36.2 mpg. Still lower than just using the engine without recharging the HVB.

 

Bottom line is, save battery mode should only be used if the battery is full or very close to it, so you don't charge much to get to 90-91%. If its drained forget about that option just drive fast enough on the highway to not waste the remaining battery, 65mph CC works. On the way up I did get 56.5 mpg, including the battery charged from home. I think I would have net closer to 40mpg if I had not recharged the battery and used it on the way back."

 

The Cmax is more efficient than the Mini and can manage over 6 miles per kwh, the Mini less than 5 miles per kwh, so the "recharge battery" option with the Cmax would be better than with the Mini for sure.

 

-=>Raja.

 

What you described for the Mini is also implemented pretty much the same way on the Niro PHEV - I can charge the EV from the ICE while driving on highway, but at a cost on MPG versus running as a hybrid after the EV drops where it gets around 52 MPG city / 49 MPG highway in ECO mode - the car also has a Sport mode which turns on the ICE and retards the transmission shifts to allow jack rabbit starts, passing or on ramp speeds, with a cost to MPG.  Similar to the NRG 'lead foot from a start', but you can control shifts manually if you like.  I use just for 10 seconds at a time.  Like the NRG, you can also just mash the pedal to turn on the ICE, but that won't change the transmission shifts.  BTW, the Niro actually has a 6-speed double clutch instead of the more common hybrid CVT, so it doesn't whine at highway speeds.










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