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Scanguage and HVB age


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10 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   Billyk24

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Posted 20 July 2018 - 05:23 PM

In months:

 

scanguage%20%20battery%20age_zpsaxf8xns9









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#2 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 20 July 2018 - 07:10 PM

That is the HVB age not the 12v battery age.

 

-=>Raja.



#3 OFFLINE   Tom_NC_1

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Posted 21 July 2018 - 06:50 AM

With all the recent discussion of battery age I searched for and was not able to find a PID for the 12V battery. The HVB BCM module is 7E4 and pid 4810. The formula I use in the scan gauge displays the age in months.

 

It does not make much sense for there to be an age parameter for the 12V battery because most people would never go to a Ford service to replace the 12V battery and I would be surprised if even they would reset any age parameter anyway.

 

If anyone knows the module an PID for an age parameter for the 12V battery I would like to get it to make a xgauge.

 

I have also done a lot of monitoring of the 12V battery voltage since I had two early issues resolved by replacing the 12V. The current 12V battery has already exceeded the lifespan of either of the first two. When the car is on the charge voltage to the 12V battery is from 14.1v to 14.9V. The lowest voltage in that range occurs when the outside temp is 90+ degrees. The highest number is the range occurs when the outside temperature is much cooler. Typically the resting voltage in my current battery is able 12.5V. I expect no problems with this 12V battery until I see the resting voltage drop to around 12V or below.

 

Tom



#4 OFFLINE   cr08

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Posted 21 July 2018 - 07:23 AM

Tom: Check out the following thread starting with post #14:

 

http://fordcmaxenerg...ons/#entry50231

 

There is a battery age counter for the 12V battery which can currently be read using ForScan as covered in that thread. Unfortunately I couldn't tell you the necessary values to use in an SG or Torque. The battery age can and SHOULD be reset upon replacement of the battery for various reasons around optimal management of charge/discharge of the 12V battery. That thread has some detailed comments from myself and others on the matter.



#5 OFFLINE   plus 3 golfer

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Posted 21 July 2018 - 01:16 PM

Tom, read the snips from the Service Manual below and also read the Owner's manual on the 12 V battery - replacement should be same size and done at Ford dealer.  Someplace maybe in a TB, I read that a step in replacing battery is to reset Age to zero.

 

Resetting the battery age when installing a new battery allows the BCM to calculate the SOC of the 12 V battery correctly and for the PCM to provide the DC/DC converter the desired charging voltage.  Not resetting Age or replacing with incorrect size affects charging and load shed operataions (and perhaps battery life) because the SOC will not be computed correctly.  Yes, dealer did not reset my age and others but many dealers do reset.  My guess is when the battery is changed by the QuickLube guys, age is likely not reset.

 

I just looked at my records: my original battery was replaced in 8/2015 (about 34 months after purchase new in 12/2012) by Ford. Age was not reset but I didn't know of that parameter or the stuff below until over a year later.   

 

In the summer of 2017, I noted that my 12 V SOC was always low (usually below 12% to about 25% after maybe one hour of driving).  If I put my battery charger on, the max SOC I got was in the 40%-50% range when the charger light turned green.  So, I assumed I'd lost about 50%+ capacity in the new battery in 2 years.  In Aug. 2017, I monitored SOC while driving cross country as I described in another thread and got up to 92% SOC after 28 hours but that quickly fell to the teens % SOC after serveral weeks.  Around 2/2018 I found out that I could reset Age with ForScan Windows trial version and reset Age to zero (Age was at about 1900 days when reset).  My SOC went up to 55% - 60% after several weeks of driving.  Yesterday because of the discussion on Age, I hooked up my 2/8 Amp charger to see what the max. SOC might be and after about 2 hours the green light came on and my SOC was at 64%.  

 

So, my battery is actually about 1065 days old and the battery age that the BCM uses is 141 days since I zeroed it 141 days ago. What we don't know is if the life of my 12V battery was affected by the low SOC because my Age was not reset. Otherwise, but for some load shed like turning Sync off after a few minutes or a possible "no start" (dead battery from drains / loads since SOC isn't as high as it should be), there shouldn't be any detrimental effect of incorrect Age on the performance of a car.    

 

"Battery Monitoring Sensor

The Battery Monitoring Sensor continuously monitors the condition and the state of charge of the 12V battery and provides the BCM with this information. The Battery Monitoring Sensor also estimates losses in the battery capacity over time. The Battery Monitoring Sensor should only be reset when the battery is replaced. It is urgently recommended that the replacement battery has the exact same specification as the original battery. If it does not, the accuracy of the Battery Monitoring Sensor outputs will be compromised.

 

The Battery Monitoring Sensor is clamped directly to the negative terminal of the battery and grounds to the vehicle at the chassis ground connection point through the negative battery cable and eyelet. It is part of the negative battery cable and cannot be serviced separately. For more information,
Refer to: Battery and Cables - System Operation and Component Description (414-01 Battery, Mounting and Cables, Description and Operation).

External customer loads must only be connected to the vehicle at the customer battery connection point. If an external customer load is connected at the negative battery post, the Battery Monitoring Sensor accuracy cannot be guaranteed. It is recommended that the Battery Monitoring Sensor pole clamp is not removed unless a battery replacement is required. Should the battery need to be isolated, this should be done by disconnecting the ground eyelet at the chassis ground.

 

Body Control Module (BCM)

The BCM monitors the Battery Monitoring Sensor and provides the PCM with battery state of charge information. For more information on the BCM ,
Refer to: Module Controlled Functions - System Operation and Component Description (419-10 Multifunction Electronic Modules, Description and Operation). 

 

Battery Load Shed

The BCM uses the battery monitoring sensor to keep track of the battery state of charge in order to save the remaining battery charge when necessary. 

 

12V Battery Charging System

The 12V battery is charged by the Direct Current/Direct Current (DC/DC) converter control module. The Battery Monitoring Sensor continuously monitors the battery state of charge condition and provides the BCM with this information. The BCM communicates this information to the PCM over the High Speed Controller Area Network (HS-CAN). The PCM communicates the battery desired setpoint to the Direct Current/Direct Current (DC/DC) converter control module which supplies the necessary charge voltage to the 12V battery. For more information,
Refer to: Direct Current/Direct Current (DC/DC) Converter Control Module - System Operation and Component Description (414-05 Voltage Converter/Inverter, Description and Operation)."  



#6 OFFLINE   Tom_NC_1

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Posted 21 July 2018 - 02:38 PM

Tom: Check out the following thread starting with post #14:

 

http://fordcmaxenerg...ons/#entry50231

 

There is a battery age counter for the 12V battery which can currently be read using ForScan as covered in that thread. Unfortunately I couldn't tell you the necessary values to use in an SG or Torque. The battery age can and SHOULD be reset upon replacement of the battery for various reasons around optimal management of charge/discharge of the 12V battery. That thread has some detailed comments from myself and others on the matter.

 

I have been monitoring that thread and was very interested in all the information. Unfortunately I need the actual PID in order to program a xgauge in the ScanGauge. Even the list of BCM pid's I received from the ScanGauge engineer did not have a 12V related BATTERY_AGE pid listed. Guess I am out of luck for now.

 

Tom



#7 OFFLINE   cr08

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Posted 21 July 2018 - 02:49 PM

Maybe an option you can take is hit up the ForScan forum and see if anyone has found the necessary PIDs for that. The 12V bat age is not unique to our vehicles and a lot of late model Ford's should have it as well. I'd also be interested as well. In place of a ScanGauge I am trying to get an old phone set up purely for Torque so I can keep it constantly up and running in my car.



#8 OFFLINE   plus 3 golfer

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Posted 21 July 2018 - 02:50 PM

I have been monitoring that thread and was very interested in all the information. Unfortunately I need the actual PID in order to program a xgauge in the ScanGauge. Even the list of BCM pid's I received from the ScanGauge engineer did not have a 12V related BATTERY_AGE pid listed. Guess I am out of luck for now.

 

Tom

Why not just get the ForScan App and a cheap Elm 327???  $20 - $25  There will likely be lots of PIDs that are not on the BCM list you got from the engineer along with PIDs in other modules.



#9 OFFLINE   Tom_NC_1

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Posted 21 July 2018 - 03:08 PM

Tom, read the snips from the Service Manual below and also read the Owner's manual on the 12 V battery - replacement should be same size and done at Ford dealer.  Someplace maybe in a TB, I read that a step in replacing battery is to reset Age to zero.

 

Resetting the battery age when installing a new battery allows the BCM to calculate the SOC of the 12 V battery correctly and for the PCM to provide the DC/DC converter the desired charging voltage.  Not resetting Age or replacing with incorrect size affects charging and load shed operataions (and perhaps battery life) because the SOC will not be computed correctly.  Yes, dealer did not reset my age and others but many dealers do reset.  My guess is when the battery is changed by the QuickLube guys, age is likely not reset.

 

I just looked at my records: my original battery was replaced in 8/2015 (about 34 months after purchase new in 12/2012) by Ford. Age was not reset but I didn't know of that parameter or the stuff below until over a year later.   

 

In the summer of 2017, I noted that my 12 V SOC was always low (usually below 12% to about 25% after maybe one hour of driving).  If I put my battery charger on, the max SOC I got was in the 40%-50% range when the charger light turned green.  So, I assumed I'd lost about 50%+ capacity in the new battery in 2 years.  In Aug. 2017, I monitored SOC while driving cross country as I described in another thread and got up to 92% SOC after 28 hours but that quickly fell to the teens % SOC after serveral weeks.  Around 2/2018 I found out that I could reset Age with ForScan Windows trial version and reset Age to zero (Age was at about 1900 days when reset).  My SOC went up to 55% - 60% after several weeks of driving.  Yesterday because of the discussion on Age, I hooked up my 2/8 Amp charger to see what the max. SOC might be and after about 2 hours the green light came on and my SOC was at 64%.  

 

So, my battery is actually about 1065 days old and the battery age that the BCM uses is 141 days since I zeroed it 141 days ago. What we don't know is if the life of my 12V battery was affected by the low SOC because my Age was not reset. Otherwise, but for some load shed like turning Sync off after a few minutes or a possible "no start" (dead battery from drains / loads since SOC isn't as high as it should be), there shouldn't be any detrimental effect of incorrect Age on the performance of a car.    

 

"Battery Monitoring Sensor

The Battery Monitoring Sensor continuously monitors the condition and the state of charge of the 12V battery and provides the BCM with this information. The Battery Monitoring Sensor also estimates losses in the battery capacity over time. The Battery Monitoring Sensor should only be reset when the battery is replaced. It is urgently recommended that the replacement battery has the exact same specification as the original battery. If it does not, the accuracy of the Battery Monitoring Sensor outputs will be compromised.

 

The Battery Monitoring Sensor is clamped directly to the negative terminal of the battery and grounds to the vehicle at the chassis ground connection point through the negative battery cable and eyelet. It is part of the negative battery cable and cannot be serviced separately. For more information,
Refer to: Battery and Cables - System Operation and Component Description (414-01 Battery, Mounting and Cables, Description and Operation).

External customer loads must only be connected to the vehicle at the customer battery connection point. If an external customer load is connected at the negative battery post, the Battery Monitoring Sensor accuracy cannot be guaranteed. It is recommended that the Battery Monitoring Sensor pole clamp is not removed unless a battery replacement is required. Should the battery need to be isolated, this should be done by disconnecting the ground eyelet at the chassis ground.

 

Body Control Module (BCM)

 

The BCM monitors the Battery Monitoring Sensor and provides the PCM with battery state of charge information. For more information on the BCM ,
Refer to: Module Controlled Functions - System Operation and Component Description (419-10 Multifunction Electronic Modules, Description and Operation). 

 

Battery Load Shed

The BCM uses the battery monitoring sensor to keep track of the battery state of charge in order to save the remaining battery charge when necessary. 

 

12V Battery Charging System

The 12V battery is charged by the Direct Current/Direct Current (DC/DC) converter control module. The Battery Monitoring Sensor continuously monitors the battery state of charge condition and provides the BCM with this information. The BCM communicates this information to the PCM over the High Speed Controller Area Network (HS-CAN). The PCM communicates the battery desired setpoint to the Direct Current/Direct Current (DC/DC) converter control module which supplies the necessary charge voltage to the 12V battery. For more information,
Refer to: Direct Current/Direct Current (DC/DC) Converter Control Module - System Operation and Component Description (414-05 Voltage Converter/Inverter, Description and Operation)."  

The OM does not indicate any detail related to resetting the 12v battery sensor when a battery is changed. It only indicated that changing the 12V battery should be done by the dealer. I had my battery replaced once by the regular Ford service department and a second battery replaced by the Fords Quick Lane service. The Quick Lane service indicated that they had no access to any diagnostic information so I wonder if resetting the battery age is something they could even do. 

 

I do appreciate the detailed information from the service manual but it is still lacking in the detail I would need to build an xguage for the ScanGauge. 

 

I also did a number of web searches and was not able to find any reference to the PID used to monitor the 12V battery age.  So if anyone comes up with the PID please let me know.

 

Tom


Edited by Tom_NC_1, 21 July 2018 - 03:10 PM.


#10 OFFLINE   plus 3 golfer

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Posted 21 July 2018 - 05:06 PM

Here's the link to TSB 16-0157 which tells dealer to reset the BMS after they replace battery.

 

 

  1. No – record the failure code. Replace the battery. Refer to WSM, Section 414-01. Make sure the new 12 volt battery is fully charged. Using Integrated Diagnostic System (IDS) service tool, perform the battery monitoring system (BMS) reset after the new battery is connected. Proceed to Step 4.


#11 OFFLINE   plus 3 golfer

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Posted 21 July 2018 - 07:07 PM

Here's a snip of the BMS from the Windows version of Forscan showing the BMS reset which sets the battery age to zero  months.

Attached File  bms resey.JPG   100.26KB   0 downloads


Edited by plus 3 golfer, 21 July 2018 - 07:09 PM.

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