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Q&A request: Best short-term storage conditions


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29 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   dontfret

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 12:35 PM

The 2013 NRG won't be driven for a week while I'm away.  To best preserve the 12V battery is it best to 

a.  leave Cmax plugged in to 220V charger?

b.  leave a trickle float charger attached to 12V?

c.  b, but not a?

d.  just charge up 12V on trickle to full and HVB to around 50% and then unplug both?

 









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#2 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 05:15 PM

Leave HVB at 20% charge level +/- 10%, and

 

a) if you have a spare 12v battery, you can just jumper it to the Cmax 12v battery to double its capacity.  Do this by fabricating a cigarette lighter plug with aligator clips, attach it to the spare 12v battery and plug it into the 12v socket in the Cmax trunk which is always live.  Be careful to keep the polarity correct.

 

b) if you don't have a spare 12v battery, you can use the trickle charger and put that on the 12v battery of the Cmax, either into the 12v cigarette plug or just pop the hood and access the jump terminals there.

 

Always store the HVB at a low charge level, that makes it live longer over its lifetime.  If you do a) above of your choices, then the HVB will be sitting at 100% all the time which is bad for it.

 

-=>Raja.



#3 OFFLINE   dontfret

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 09:17 PM

Then trickle it is (after suffering 12V failure to learn the NRG then becomes a doorknob!!, I bought an external charger to use every 3-4 months to top up the 12V in my NRG and my wife's ICE Hyundai), leave HVB at ~25%



#4 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 18 July 2018 - 04:53 AM

Don't worry about topping off the 12v battery, that's not necessary.  I never do mine I only recharge my wife's 12v battery on her BMW (used to) when she would leave stuff plugged into the cigarette lighter and drain it or leave the parking light on.

 

If its not dead you don't need to recharge it when you plug it in the 120v charger will recharge the 12v battery and when you power up the Cmax the DC to DC converter will as well.

 

-=>Raja.


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#5 OFFLINE   dontfret

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Posted 18 July 2018 - 08:56 AM

My understanding is the HVB inverter will only take the 12V to around 12V, where the trickle charger will take it to 13.5+, and regular external charging will improve the expected 3-year life.  All I know is the experience of being on the road with a dead 12V in 2016 (just at 3 years) was not a pleasant experience :(  which I hope to avoid.  And will replace the 12V again in early 2019.  Rather spend ~$125 than be caught with a DOA car.



#6 OFFLINE   plus 3 golfer

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Posted 18 July 2018 - 01:29 PM

My understanding is the HVB inverter will only take the 12V to around 12V, where the trickle charger will take it to 13.5+, and regular external charging will improve the expected 3-year life.  All I know is the experience of being on the road with a dead 12V in 2016 (just at 3 years) was not a pleasant experience :(  which I hope to avoid.  And will replace the 12V again in early 2019.  Rather spend ~$125 than be caught with a DOA car.

Did the dealer reset the battery age to 0 days with the install in 2016?  Do you know the current SOC of the 12V battery?  Rather than guess what is happening, get ForScan.  :smile2:

 

The DC/DC converter (not inverter) charges the 12V battery.   From my observations, I've never seen the 12 V reading at any module below 13.85 V where desired voltage at the converter usually starts out  high at 14.4 / 14.5 V which allows faster 12 V battery charging.  After several minutes, my desired drops to 14.3 / 14.1 V and charging current drops. My SOC is currently at 58%.  Car can probably sit at airport for a month and start upon return.  However, this was not the case until I reset the battery age of the dealer replacement battery.

 

The BCM monitors the current through the negative cable of the battery via a battery monitoring sensor.  I don't know the 12 V charging algorithm but I do know that the combination of battery age and the cumulative battery flowing current over time (+ and -) is used to track the SOC and it appears by my observations that the charging algorithm likely change as the battery ages and the energy capacity of the 12 V battery declines.  My battery age was not reset by the dealer when my battery failed at about 3+ years.  The SOC of my new 12 V battery very rarely got above 20% unless I put in on my battery charger.  My battery age was 1700 days + (can't recall exactly when I reset the battery age) because the dealer did not reset my battery age at 3 + years.  Below are observations from a 28 hour, 1900+ mile trip where a monitored 12 V battery charging before I reset my battery age.

 

The charging algorithm acts like a 3 stage battery charger (initial faster charging state, longer slow charge state, and a float charge state).  There was no abrupt change in current just a slow drop early  with the charge rate decling even slower as SOC increased. For the first 4 hours of driving, current flow through the 12 V battery averaged around 0.75 A (early it's mid / low single digits) and SOC went from 3% to about 50%.  During the next 8 hours, current averaged about 0.5 A and SOC went up to 80%.  During the last 16 hours, current averaged about 0.19 A and state of charge ended at 92 %.  From about 88% SOC, current was running about 0.12 A with 0.06 A showing up sometimes (likely float voltage applied).  It took about 24 hours of charging to near full charge battery - very similar to a battery charger (not a quick charger).

 

After I realized that the Windows free version of ForScan allowed a reset of battery age, I downloaded it and reset my battery age to 0 months.  Now my SOC runs around 55-60% unless I take longer trips when it will increase. 

 

Bottom line: Charge your 12V battery with your charger if you desire. Yes, it is good to fully charge a lead acid battery occassionally to prevent sulfation.  Find out if your battery age was reset. :wink:  If not, you are likely running at a very low SOC like I was.


Edited by plus 3 golfer, 18 July 2018 - 03:11 PM.


#7 OFFLINE   MaxLB

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Posted 18 July 2018 - 05:18 PM

The 2013 NRG won't be driven for a week while I'm away.  To best preserve the 12V battery is it best to 

a.  leave Cmax plugged in to 220V charger?

b.  leave a trickle float charger attached to 12V?

c.  b, but not a?

d.  just charge up 12V on trickle to full and HVB to around 50% and then unplug both?

 

 A week?  Why are you even worrying about it?  Anything less then a month is not even an issue.



#8 OFFLINE   komondor

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Posted 18 July 2018 - 05:18 PM

I have left my cmax at the airport for 1 , 2, and 3 weeks at a time with no issues at all.  Have also left it at home plugged into the 120v charger and had no issues.

Mine is a 2013 purchased  in 2014 it sat for pretty much a full year, I am still on the original battery.  I drive about 1/2 the time on battery and the other have on the IC engine.



#9 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 18 July 2018 - 05:49 PM

Yes the DC to DC converter provides 14.5v when you power up and as the 12v battery voltage rises, the current drops.  Its nothing special but a constant voltage charging system in general that's how they work.

 

I have no idea why battery age will have anything to do with anything.  Doesn't make sense to me.  I know the HVB has a battery age parameter in months, I have not seen one for the 12v battery.  I think its just for knowledge of how old the battery is in the car.

 

-=>Raja.



#10 OFFLINE   plus 3 golfer

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Posted 19 July 2018 - 04:43 AM

Yes the DC to DC converter provides 14.5v when you power up and as the 12v battery voltage rises, the current drops.  Its nothing special but a constant voltage charging system in general that's how they work.

 

I have no idea why battery age will have anything to do with anything.  Doesn't make sense to me.  I know the HVB has a battery age parameter in months, I have not seen one for the 12v battery.  I think its just for knowledge of how old the battery is in the car.

 

-=>Raja.

The battery age is also used in the algorithm for the length of time Sync stays up after turning car off.   The BCM via the input from the battery monitor sensor keeps track of the "energy" in and out of the battery and hence its SOC and storage capacity lost.   When the age is set to zero, Sync will stay up for 10 minutes before the shutdown message pops up as the algorithm assumes a new battery (max. storage).  As the battery ages and storage capacity diminishes, the time Sync stays up before shutting down is decreased to conserve battery stored energy.  Based on my observations, even though one puts in a new battery unless battery age is reset, the algorithm does not know it and continues to assume diminished capacity as evidenced by the time Sync staying up drops  (many including myself have seen only 90 seconds before Sync shutdown).  Try it. :wink:  Then you will see first hand. :smile2:

 

I also believe that the charging algorithm is adjusted especially the bulk charge time (time at voltage level) based on of battery storage capacity determined by the BCM algorithm and other parameters.  This is likely why Ford says to repace the battery with one of the same Ah rating. 


Edited by plus 3 golfer, 19 July 2018 - 04:45 AM.

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#11 OFFLINE   cr08

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Posted 19 July 2018 - 05:50 AM

The battery age is also used in the algorithm for the length of time Sync stays up after turning car off.   The BCM via the input from the battery monitor sensor keeps track of the "energy" in and out of the battery and hence its SOC and storage capacity lost.   When the age is set to zero, Sync will stay up for 10 minutes before the shutdown message pops up as the algorithm assumes a new battery (max. storage).  As the battery ages and storage capacity diminishes, the time Sync stays up before shutting down is decreased to conserve battery stored energy.  Based on my observations, even though one puts in a new battery unless battery age is reset, the algorithm does not know it and continues to assume diminished capacity as evidenced by the time Sync staying up drops  (many including myself have seen only 90 seconds before Sync shutdown).  Try it. :wink:  Then you will see first hand. :smile2:

 

I also believe that the charging algorithm is adjusted especially the bulk charge time (time at voltage level) based on of battery storage capacity determined by the BCM algorithm and other parameters.  This is likely why Ford says to repace the battery with one of the same Ah rating. 

To expand on this: While there's not any 'visible' information into what the battery age does other than the Sync shutdown timer, there's likely a number of things in the background that it ties into, one of which is obviously the charging algorithms to maintain a suitable charge rate based on age and wear.

 

A bit over a decade ago I had been lurking some BMW owner forums and they have had similar systems even as far back as to late 90s/early '00s models. More or less do the same thing. Battery age is monitored and reset when changed. It interfaces with various systems not only to manage charging but also to facilitate making sure when the car is off more unnecessary modules shut down earlier as the battery ages to keep it from draining too far.

 

It's one of the primary reasons that I highly recommend NOT resetting the timer unless the battery is actually changed. With how much 12V battery issues our vehicles have had over the years, I'd rather it have the best chance of keeping it in check. Resetting the battery age when you are, say, 3-4 years into the battery is going to throw things out of whack.



#12 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 19 July 2018 - 06:06 AM

Where is this battery age parameter and how do you reset it?

 

Isn't it more prudent to look at the voltage and determine when to shut down the radio then just assume some charge capacity based on time?

 

Time is not accurate as actual voltage.  

 

Its like running the radio and draining the battery, saying, well, it takes 10 minutes today but 8 minutes next year but 6 minutes the year after, but its only a guess if its actually drained or not.

 

You could damage the battery by leaving lights on or something plugged in and draining it deep then the age versus usage time goes out the window.  You see what I mean?

 

-=>Raja.



#13 OFFLINE   cr08

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Posted 19 July 2018 - 06:22 AM

I'm pretty sure it takes both voltage and age into account and not JUST age. But age is just as useful as monitoring the voltage.

 

As far as where the age is displayed, I'm not sure. I don't recall seeing it in Forscan anywhere (I'll take a look later today again) but there is a service command in Forscan to reset it.



#14 OFFLINE   plus 3 golfer

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Posted 19 July 2018 - 10:26 AM

The PID for battery age is available in ForScan in the BCM, IIRC.   It can be reset with the Windows trial version but not the Lite versions of ForScan.

 

Resetting age also resets the accumulation of the energy in / out of the battery referred to as Coulumb Counting.  

 

"Coulomb counting is a technique used to track the State of Charge of a battery pack. It works by integrating the active flowing current (measured in amps) over time to derive the total sum of energy entering or leaving the battery pack."

 

There are several parameters that  the service manual says affect when the algorithm decides to preserve battery energy.  The point is that incorrect battery age is due to not resetting age when a new battery is installed and thus operations involving the 12V system are affected.  


Edited by plus 3 golfer, 19 July 2018 - 11:42 AM.

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#15 OFFLINE   cr08

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Posted 19 July 2018 - 11:18 AM

So tried to caption the photo but Photoshop is not cooperating right now but I did check into Forscan:

 

https://imgur.com/NPM1KFI

 

Top is obviously the HVB age from the BECM. Listed in months. Bottom was pulled from BdyCM listed in days. This may have been what confused me before as both counters originate around July 2013 which is the build date of my car. Could either of you confirm other numbers for the battery age monitor from the BdyCM to confirm it is for the 12V battery? That would make the most sense but I'd just like to be 100% sure on that.

 

If that does end up being true either I am extremely lucky and still have the factory battery after 5 years or it has been replaced prior to my ownership and the counter never reset. May have to dig in to the rear and take a look and see if there's any telltale signs on the battery.



#16 OFFLINE   plus 3 golfer

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Posted 19 July 2018 - 11:50 AM

Sorry, it's the BCM.  Here's two pics showing car on and car off.  Battery Age is 140 days.  Note the Battery Current changes from charging when on to a drain with car off.

 

Attached File  Screenshot_20180719-124012.png   392.88KB   0 downloadsAttached File  Screenshot_20180719-124116.png   437.14KB   0 downloads


Edited by plus 3 golfer, 19 July 2018 - 11:51 AM.

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#17 OFFLINE   plus 3 golfer

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Posted 19 July 2018 - 11:52 AM

XXX


Edited by plus 3 golfer, 19 July 2018 - 11:52 AM.


#18 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 19 July 2018 - 02:42 PM

Just FYI, 99F on the battery is too hot, if you can not do that it will be better for the HVB.

 

-=>Raja.



#19 OFFLINE   plus 3 golfer

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Posted 19 July 2018 - 06:15 PM

That's the price one pays for living in the Phoenix area - extremely high temperatures in the summer. That's in my garage which is about 5*F cooler than the ambient. Nightime lows can dip to below 80F.  But, the garage will still be at 90F in the morning.  It's one of the reasons I bought the Hybrid and not the Energi as I recognized in 2011 - 2012 time frame that AZ heat had / will have a significant detrimental effect on HVBs (the Leaf).

 

When I look at the INL test data on the Hybrid and Energi (cars tested in hot climates), the Energi HVBs lost a significantly higher % of initial kWh capacity than the Hybrids HVBs and the FE of the Hybrids were virtually flat through the end of testing (150k +- miles).  So, I'm not worried about the temperature affecting my HVB.  The same cannot be said about the Energi as losing 10-20% of initial kWh capacity will lower EV only kWh to a greater extent than the 10-20% and thus lower EV range significantly.  Overall MPGe will drop.  AFAIK in the INL testing, there were no restriction on when to charge or charging to a lower SOC to mitigate HVB capacity decline.  But operating under such restriction means one is "giving up", to an extent, on the basic premise of PHEV ownership - substitute electric energy for gas and potentially lower overall life cycle costs of a PHEV compared to ICE and HEV vehicles.   



#20 OFFLINE   cr08

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Posted 19 July 2018 - 08:06 PM

Sorry, it's the BCM.  Here's two pics showing car on and car off.  Battery Age is 140 days.  Note the Battery Current changes from charging when on to a drain with car off.

 

attachicon.gifScreenshot_20180719-124012.pngattachicon.gifScreenshot_20180719-124116.png

Good to have that confirmation. So as mentioned above, either I am EXTREMELY lucky and still have a 5 year old factory battery that is running great (never had any issues with it going dead. Even left the car sitting for about 5 days unplugged back in May when we were out in California) or someone replaced it prior to me and the counter was never reset. I'll definitely be taking a closer look at the battery this weekend and try to confirm that. Will also give me a chance to take my own look at space around the HVB for cooling per another thread here.










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