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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Stop Safely Now only when using ICE

transmission damper ice cel stop safely now

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24 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   ShoulderThingThatGoesUP

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 03:39 AM

My car is at the Ford dealer now, and I'm not sure when I am getting it back. It's our only car, but fortunately we have a slightly smoky, slightly cramped Hyundai Elantra loaner that just barely fits our family. Here's what happened.
 
It's been unusually hot in Pennsylvania - mid 90s - and following the advice here, I set our C-Max to charge at night only, being OK with using the ICE a bit more during the day.
 
On Sunday, my wife took one of our toddlers to the grocery store with her, after we'd already been on several trips during the day, so the HVB was drained. We live in a compact town and the grocery store is less than two miles away. Not quite there, she got a check engine light, a chime, and a Stop Safely Now message. She called me and we decided she might as well go grocery shopping and she could probably make it home. She got the same problem crossing the street to the grocery store parking lot. On her way home, though, it happened again but worse - the car went into low-power mode and wouldn't go above 10 MPH. She walked home with our daughter, and then I walked to the car and drove it home - with the light on, but it working fine. I plugged it in and it charged overnight.
 
The Ford dealer wouldn't commit to looking at it for 10 days (!) so I took it to a friend's shop even though we thought it might be a unique hybrid issue. To get there, I used the HVB for most of the trip except for substantial highway acceleration, when I went into EV Later. The car behaved normally, but still had the light.
 
At the shop they found these codes:
B1C84-11: Heated rear window
P0D8F-00: Battery (?) overheat (Or it's P008F-00, not sure about the mechanic's handwriting)
P1920-62: Crankshaft or damper
 
They focused on the overheat, said it might just be the hot weather, and said they would do more research but I could take it home. The other two codes were apparently in "history". So, I pull out of the shop in EV mode, then hit EV Later to pull onto the highway. Immediate chime, Stop Safely Now, and check engine light. I make a loop back to the shop.
 
The overheat code is gone, but P1920 is back. I showed them how to use EV Later to get into the same situation, and they gave me a ride to a rental car place in the C-Max so they could experience it themselves. On the way back it went into limp mode twice. After more looking into it they recommended I take it to Ford as they felt there was a good chance it is a "unique hybrid components" 8-year, 100k-mile warranty issue. The shop plugged it in for a while so I could get to the Ford dealer on battery power, and it again gave me no trouble except having the CEL on.
 
The car has 42,000 miles on it. It's a very early build date - September 2012. Anybody else experience this?

 









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#2 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 06:12 AM

P1920 has something to do with the leak detection of the tank:

 

"The leak detection pump is part of the evaporative emissions system. This system tests the fuel system to make sure it is not leaking fuel vapors into the air. The system pulls a vacuum on the fuel system and holds it for a period of time."

 

Now that I think about it, I've had that in my 2013 cmax and Ford replaced some part in relation to this under warranty.  I had a check engine light but the car didn't stop driving in any way.

 

-=>Raja.



#3 OFFLINE   ShoulderThingThatGoesUP

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 07:14 AM

An emissions problem might turn on the CEL but shouldn't activate the Stop Safely Now message or reduce power, right?



#4 OFFLINE   cr08

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 07:57 AM

P1920 has something to do with the leak detection of the tank:

 

"The leak detection pump is part of the evaporative emissions system. This system tests the fuel system to make sure it is not leaking fuel vapors into the air. The system pulls a vacuum on the fuel system and holds it for a period of time."

 

Now that I think about it, I've had that in my 2013 cmax and Ford replaced some part in relation to this under warranty.  I had a check engine light but the car didn't stop driving in any way.

 

-=>Raja.

Actually if you check the OBD operations document for our vehicles: http://www.fordservi...DSM1700_HEV.pdf

It agrees with the summary of being crankshaft sensor related:

 

P1920 - Difference between engine speed CAN signal and internal engine speed calculation > 500 rpm for 500 ms OR > 550rpm for 1000 ms.

Which could easily trigger a stop safely now warning. Beyond all that I have no further information to give unfortunately other than that since this is concerning the ICE it may not be under the hybrid warranty. Just a word of caution there.


Edited by cr08, 06 July 2018 - 07:58 AM.

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#5 OFFLINE   ShoulderThingThatGoesUP

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 08:27 AM

The Atkinson cycle engine isn't a unique hybrid component? That makes some sense, depending how things are defined. It needs fixed either way.



#6 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 08:29 AM

Yeah that looks like a better document, I did a quick google search and it came up with what I posted on that code.

 

I'm thinking the first order of business might be to replace that sensor.  See if that fixes the problem.  These days engines need all those sensors and if they go back it can cause issues.

 

Let us know what you find out.

 

-=>Raja.



#7 OFFLINE   ShoulderThingThatGoesUP

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 08:46 AM

The whole powertrain is warrantied through 5 years or 60,000 miles. Fortunately my warranty start date was 11/12/2013 so the powertrain should be covered.


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#8 OFFLINE   plus 3 golfer

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 02:59 PM

The whole powertrain is warrantied through 5 years or 60,000 miles. Fortunately my warranty start date was 11/12/2013 so the powertrain should be covered.

But, I doubt a sensor issue is part of the Powertrain warranty.  It would likely be covered on the B2B or emissions warranty (2/24 unless PA has something longer) which have expired.  

 

1) Your vehicle’s Powertrain components are covered for five years or 60,000 miles, whichever occurs first. The extended coverage applies to the Engine: all internal lubricated parts, cylinder block, cylinder heads, electrical fuel pump, electronic engine control unit, engine mounts, flywheel, injection pump, manifold (exhaust and intake), manifold bolts, oil pan, oil pump, seals and gaskets, thermostat, thermostat housing, timing chain cover, timing chain (gears or belt), turbocharger/ supercharger unit, valve covers, water pump; Transmission: all internal parts, clutch cover, seals and gaskets, torque converter, transfer case (including all internal parts), transmission case, transmission mounts;single-speed gear (for The Focus Electric); Front-Wheel Drive: axle shafts, bearings (front and rear), center support bearing, drive shafts, final drive housing (including all internal parts), hubs-automatic front locking (four-wheel drive), locking rings (four-wheel drive), seals and gaskets, universal and constant velocity joints; Rear-Wheel Drive: axle shafts, bearings (front and rear), center support bearing, drive axle housing (including all internal parts), drive shaft, propeller shafts, retainers, supports, seals and gaskets, universal and constant velocity joints. 


Edited by plus 3 golfer, 08 July 2018 - 03:08 PM.

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#9 OFFLINE   plus 3 golfer

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 08:52 PM

It may be your transmission damper or transmission input shaft if not the sensor per below.  I assume that ICE will not start.  If you can drive without ICE, the generator would be spinning and the service manual says replace the damper.  Is the damper covered under the powertrain warranty? Is the damper considered an internal part of the C-Max transmission?  

 

The damper is between the flywheel and the input shaft to the transmission.  The damper bolts to the flywheel and then the transmission damper cover of the transmission bolts to the engine. See snip below and link.  Maybe 10-11 hours of labor based on fixing leaking gasket between damper cover and transmission. 

 

Good luck.

 

 

P1920 - Engine Speed Signal

Description: This DTC sets when the engine speed measured by the PCM exceeds the engine speed measured at the transmission by a calibrated threshold. Possible Causes:

  • Damaged crankshaft position (CKP) sensor
  • Damaged transmission damper
  • Damaged transmission input shaft

Diagnostic Aids: Diagnose and repair any CKP sensor DTCs first.

This DTC is intended to diagnose a slipping or damaged transmission damper. Start the engine. If the engine starts but this DTC sets again, the CKP sensor or wiring is suspect. If the engine does not start but the generator can be heard spinning, replace the transmission damper. Refer to the Workshop Manual Section 303-01, Engine. Application   Key On Engine Off Key On Engine Running Continuous Memory All   Refer to the Description, Possible Causes and Diagnostic Aids for the DTC.

 

Attached File  Flywheel Damper C-Max.JPG   83.37KB   0 downloads


Edited by plus 3 golfer, 09 July 2018 - 08:53 AM.

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#10 OFFLINE   ShoulderThingThatGoesUP

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 02:41 AM

The engine does start. It's possible to drive on engine power, but it gets annoying when the car goes into limp mode. So the idea that it's just a sensor that needs replaced makes sense. The service desk called me yesterday but I couldn't take the call, and they are awful at answering their phone. Hopefully it's a quick sensor fix. I'll update when I hear more details.

 

Thank you all for the helpful information!



#11 OFFLINE   ShoulderThingThatGoesUP

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 05:46 AM

I got a call from the dealership. They put their heads together, did the research, and found their answer:
 
The car is fine. There's nothing wrong with it, except it has some rats' nests in the engine bay.
 
This despite MFM telling me that they got warning lights three times Saturday morning. They are going to drive the car again today before calling me to pick it up, and I am hoping they experience the problem. I don't want to take it back without a fix. I'm not sure how to proceed, and it doesn't help that I am seething at the dealership service department's relationship with the truth here.


#12 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 05:54 AM

I don't get the last post.  Does it have a rats nest or you're kidding?  We had a mount or chipmunk in my wife's bmw, nested in the spark plug area.  One day she drove off and that sucker got hot, he paniced and tried to get out.  He tore up the hood insulation its weird it looked like a ball of foam with a hole in the middle.  Then he squeezed over the top of the engine and made some marks on the cover in that direction before he dropped out on the right side of the motor.  I think he got out alive, but made a mess.  

 

Sometimes they can chew through wires.  My friend Tony in PA had his truck wiring damaged by a mouse.  Cost him several thousands to fix it.  I think my buddy Larry said they had to replace the wiring harness.

 

-=>Raja.


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#13 OFFLINE   ShoulderThingThatGoesUP

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 06:00 AM

They really did say it has rat's nests, but they're claiming it runs fine so they don't want to dig further.

 
This will add to my wife's desire to get a cat.


#14 OFFLINE   fotomoto

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 06:20 AM

Rodents love chewing; especially on wiring.  I've seen too many reports across numerous forums over the years.  It's really prevalent with motorcyclists who often store their rides for months at a time.  Working my way through college, I was at a carwash for about 6 months and I vacuumed up mice from underneath seats several times.  



#15 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 06:43 AM

Best way is the "have a heart trap".  You put them in the back yard against the house where chipmunks run around.  They like to go through tunnels so they get caught in the trap easily without even having to put any food in it.  Some years back I caught 23 chipmunks.  This year I caught 5 of them.  I just take them 1 mile down the road to a local park and release them there.  Have a nice life and live somewhere else.  Around my house they dig tunnels, they get into the garage, in the car under the hood, etc.  One day one of them was in the garage (out of the 23) and he was on top of the oil pan.  I opened the kitchen door, he got startled and fell into the used oil.  Jumped out with oil all over him and made a mess as he ran off all over my garage floor.

 

This year I opened the door and saw another one in the garage.  That was the last straw so I set the traps and moved 5 of them to the park.  Now I see no more.

 

-=>Raja.



#16 OFFLINE   stolenmoment

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 06:49 AM

We had rats in a mattress that the landlord stored in the garage; they chewed the insulation off the wiring in my Saab's engine compartment.



#17 OFFLINE   ShoulderThingThatGoesUP

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 06:54 AM

I have also read about spreading peppermint oil around the edge of the hood and other areas where rats could enter.
Does anybody have suggestions on how to get the dealership to address the drivability problem?


#18 OFFLINE   cr08

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 07:07 AM

I would just keep pushing them to take a closer look. If you've found a good way to replicate the issue, inform the dealership of that when they go to do a test drive. If I was in your shoes knowing what has been posted in this thread so far I definitely wouldn't take no for an answer and would want it fixed. Clearly sounds like whatever rodent was living under the hood has likely done some damage.



#19 OFFLINE   plus 3 golfer

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 10:01 AM

Agree with cr08.  It's likely rats chewed insulation off wires which allows wires to short / ground causing DTC and in troubleshooting, the dealer jiggled cables/wires around enough in removing the "rats nests" such that the sensor wiring is now not shorting or grounding. 

 

The problem obviously is the dealer is going to want to charge you for additional troubleshooting which is likely not going to be covered under any warranty (assuming it is the sensor /  wiring causing issue).  I've attached snips showing the wiring from the CKP sensor to the PCM connector (both shown in red).  Perhaps you can ask the dealear if they inspected the wiring for any damage by the rats (I'd DIY also).

 

Attached File  Crankshaft Sensor.JPG   128.04KB   0 downloads

Attached File  PCM C175T.JPG   128.35KB   0 downloads

 

 

 

    


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#20 OFFLINE   ShoulderThingThatGoesUP

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 10:19 AM

I'm OK with paying money to have this fixed as it does seem like everything is pointing to a wiring or sensor issue rather than a powertrain build/durability issue - I just want it fixed.











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