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Guest Message by DevFuse

Get you C-MAX Energi Registered in the official Ford Authorized Registry. More here.


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Nervous re: potential steering probs if buying a 2013

power steering steering used purchase safety

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29 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   fotomoto

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Posted 23 June 2018 - 07:11 AM

:noobie:

 

Having been on this forum since nearly the inception, I hadn't even heard of a steering issue until this thread so I don't consider this a problem area at all.  Folks doing research have to remember that most forums are simply a source for help (or vent) so most traffic is problem related.  Sure if you see thread after thread on the same subject, that's a reason for concern.

 

As a current and former owner of several over decades, Toyota's do have good overall reliability.  Period.  But they are not immune to issues which sometimes are very major (rusted frames, stripped head bolts, inverters, steering columns, etc).  Even the Prius which has a stellar rep. can have lots of issues as it ages that can basically brick the car for economic reasons because the second/third owner can't handle a 4 figure repair bill.  Up until that point, they're usually rock solid and just as importantly Toyota backs them up with warranty extensions (sometimes tho' only after class action lawsuits).  My Gen 2 Prius had steering column issues that were fixed in a recall by Toyota during the first owners possession.

 

From personal observations of reading several hybrid forums daily, our Energi's are doing very well and quietly go along with their daily tasks.  Did I believe this in the beginning?  Nope, in fact, this is the first car I've ever purchased an extended warranty for which so far is unused.

 

Comparing the CMax hybrid drivetrain to the Prius from a drivability standpoint is not much of a contest.  The CMax is head and shoulders better in performance and smoothness but this comes at a cost in fuel economy; however, the Energi model can more than make up for this by covering a high percentage of routes with 999+mpg via EV miles.  I'm currently at 78mpg lifetime but I don't have to "hypermile" to achieve it, I just drive normally or slightly faster than traffic.  Something about cake and eating it too comes to mind.....  :dance:


Edited by fotomoto, 23 June 2018 - 07:23 AM.
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#22 OFFLINE   mstenzel

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Posted 24 June 2018 - 09:30 PM

I am considering the 2018 Camry Hybrid or a 2017/2018 Prius.  The Camry was redesigned for 2018 and I think a Prius would be safe bet.  I suspect that either of those cars may be in our future, but the wife and I have decided that, financially, it makes more sense for us to take the discounted C-Max route at this point.

 

I'm asking my friend to do a full charge, then read the KWH after EV winds down test on his commute this week. 

What number should I be worried about on a 100K mile car?



#23 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 25 June 2018 - 11:51 AM

I am considering the 2018 Camry Hybrid or a 2017/2018 Prius.  The Camry was redesigned for 2018 and I think a Prius would be safe bet.  I suspect that either of those cars may be in our future, but the wife and I have decided that, financially, it makes more sense for us to take the discounted C-Max route at this point.

 

I'm asking my friend to do a full charge, then read the KWH after EV winds down test on his commute this week. 

What number should I be worried about on a 100K mile car?

 

I'm not familiar with the new Camry hybrids.  Looks like they really got the MPG up to Prius levels.  I'd think either of those would be a very safe bet.  However, if you're talking about a brand new car or a $5K C-Max mostly loaded with no problems, I think I'd probably go with the Max just for the huge difference in costs.  You might save more money on fuel with the Toyotas if your drives are long enough but it will take an awfully long time to make up the sort of difference between $5K and a new vehicle.

 

It's up to you what is acceptable for a used car/battery.  Ideally it would show around 5KWH.  That should get you about 20 miles of EV range at maybe 45mph on flat roads with no heater usage.  If it shows less then you'll get less range under similar conditions.



#24 OFFLINE   mstenzel

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Posted 26 June 2018 - 07:42 AM

My wife and I have come to the same conclusion as you, Levi.  We'll happily roll the dice on a car this cheap to have a few more years of no car payment.

 

I do have a follow-up question re: the battery that will reveal my ignorance on Energi/plug-in tech:

Forum folks have referred to the quality of the battery vis-a-vis the car operating in EV mode.  

Is the quality of the EV functionality directly related to the quality of the hybrid performance?

 

In other words, if the EV range is only 10 miles (as opposed to 20), will my hybrid performance also be cut in half?  Maybe the math isn't that simple.

 

Thanks.

 

I'm not familiar with the new Camry hybrids.  Looks like they really got the MPG up to Prius levels.  I'd think either of those would be a very safe bet.  However, if you're talking about a brand new car or a $5K C-Max mostly loaded with no problems, I think I'd probably go with the Max just for the huge difference in costs.  You might save more money on fuel with the Toyotas if your drives are long enough but it will take an awfully long time to make up the sort of difference between $5K and a new vehicle.

 

It's up to you what is acceptable for a used car/battery.  Ideally it would show around 5KWH.  That should get you about 20 miles of EV range at maybe 45mph on flat roads with no heater usage.  If it shows less then you'll get less range under similar conditions.



#25 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 26 June 2018 - 07:57 AM

Well...  I was going to immediately say "Nope" to the hybrid performance being effected by the EV range, but I suppose technically there could be an effect...

 

Basically the background is that on the high voltage side of things there is just one big battery and I don't recall exact numbers but something like when the car says "Full" you're about 95% charged.  Then you (hopefully) have around 5KWH/20 miles of driving entirely on battery.  Then when the EV Battery shows empty and it says that EV mode is no longer available you're down to around maybe 20% charged.  You are at this point in hybrid mode and the battery will just go up and down in the maybe 12-20% range depending on the driving.

 

So I've not heard of hybrid mode dropping in efficiency with batteries lower in capacity, and I'm not sure how the C-Max handles things with lower capacity.  If in hybrid mode it tries to use 10% of the original battery capacity, or 10% of current capacity.

 

Either way, I think the short of it in my opinion is that I wouldn't worry about it.  Most likely even in hybrid mode with a battery that's lost half it's capacity I'm guessing the car will still get around 35MPG give or take 5 or more mpg depending on conditions based on my experience.

In hybrid mode the battery is basically just a small buffer.  There are lots of Prius' out there with 15 year old batteries that I'm sure are not at original capacity that are still getting nice mileage.

 

 

My wife and I have come to the same conclusion as you, Levi.  We'll happily roll the dice on a car this cheap to have a few more years of no car payment.

 

I do have a follow-up question re: the battery that will reveal my ignorance on Energi/plug-in tech:

Forum folks have referred to the quality of the battery vis-a-vis the car operating in EV mode.  

Is the quality of the EV functionality directly related to the quality of the hybrid performance?

 

In other words, if the EV range is only 10 miles (as opposed to 20), will my hybrid performance also be cut in half?  Maybe the math isn't that simple.

 

Thanks.



#26 OFFLINE   mstenzel

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Posted 26 June 2018 - 10:47 AM

Another great reply, Levi.  Thanks for the detailed info.  
Nice to have confirmation of what I was hoping for:  Even if the battery is degrading and I have to rely on the ICE more, I can still end up with a nicely equipped fuel-efficient car.  And since I'm in California, I should have some extra time on battery failure protection (even if the threshold for that is quite high).

 

Well...  I was going to immediately say "Nope" to the hybrid performance being effected by the EV range, but I suppose technically there could be an effect...

 

Basically the background is that on the high voltage side of things there is just one big battery and I don't recall exact numbers but something like when the car says "Full" you're about 95% charged.  Then you (hopefully) have around 5KWH/20 miles of driving entirely on battery.  Then when the EV Battery shows empty and it says that EV mode is no longer available you're down to around maybe 20% charged.  You are at this point in hybrid mode and the battery will just go up and down in the maybe 12-20% range depending on the driving.

 

So I've not heard of hybrid mode dropping in efficiency with batteries lower in capacity, and I'm not sure how the C-Max handles things with lower capacity.  If in hybrid mode it tries to use 10% of the original battery capacity, or 10% of current capacity.

 

Either way, I think the short of it in my opinion is that I wouldn't worry about it.  Most likely even in hybrid mode with a battery that's lost half it's capacity I'm guessing the car will still get around 35MPG give or take 5 or more mpg depending on conditions based on my experience.

In hybrid mode the battery is basically just a small buffer.  There are lots of Prius' out there with 15 year old batteries that I'm sure are not at original capacity that are still getting nice mileage.



#27 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 26 June 2018 - 12:31 PM

To answer your question,

 

A degraded battery is degraded across the board.  So while a new battery went 20 miles minimum, up to 35 miles, a degraded battery that you get now might go 15 miles up to 25 miles depending on how you drive it, assuming it is indeed degraded that much.

 

On the hybrid side, the battery will operate between 21.5% charge (the moment it switches to hybrid) down to about 14.5% if you baby the gas pedal to the last ounce.  Usually the range is more restricted, from say 16 to 19% and it yo yo's up and down between that range.  As Levi said it won't matter that much, if you were trying to test it sure you can see it won't go as far, maybe on a new battery you could go 2 miles in hybrid mode, but on a used one you may go 1.5 miles EV before it won't go any more. 

 

But even with that, you can still get at least 40 mpg performance.  There is a guy on here with a hybrid with 200K miles that gets 55mpg on his, and with my 2017 I'm getting 59.7 mpg in hybrid mode only average (RAFE screen). driving in the city in the summer.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 26 June 2018 - 12:40 PM.


#28 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 26 June 2018 - 12:42 PM

Just keep in mind that while Raja's numbers are completely legit, I wanna make sure you're aware of the ones considerably lower which are also completely possible.  

 

There's definitely no "20 mile minimum".  If you live where it gets cold, like 5F outside and you want your car warm, it's not going to go 20 miles.  If I did some normal driving and got on the highway from town which goes uphill and drove at the speed limit then the battery won't last 20 miles either.

 

And perhaps there is something slightly off with my car, but there's no "normal" driving where it will get 40mpg in hybrid mode.  Maybe in town and averaging 30mph...  But definitely not on the highway or any of my normal 55mph roads unless I'm going downhill.

 

 

Now that said, Yes Raja's numbers are completely legit as well.  I've driven nice and easy(cruise at 25mph and not uphill) on country roads for 30 miles and seen 75mpg.  And you can clear 200mpge in EV mode under those conditions.


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#29 OFFLINE   fotomoto

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Posted 26 June 2018 - 02:28 PM

Check fuelly.com for real world gasoline (hybrid) fuel economy numbers.   

 

The Energi battery will never degrade to the point that its capacity is lower than a hybrid of the same age/miles unless there's a defect because it simply has MUCH more capacity to start with.  This is good news for us long term Energi owners as the car will eventually, many years down the road, become a "super-hybrid" (regular hybrid+a few EV miles left in the batt) similar to current Prius Plug-in (not to be confused with the new Prius Prime) that are now around 6-8 miles EV left in some of their packs which only had 11 to start with.


Edited by fotomoto, 26 June 2018 - 02:31 PM.


#30 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 26 June 2018 - 07:08 PM

Numbers very possible depending on HOW you drive.  To get my numbers you have to limit acceleration to 2 bars, wait for the car to get to speed on the highway might mean like 1 minute if you're climbing at the same time, brake efficiently 100% brake score every time, unless some other reason causes it to not be 100%, someone stepped out in the road or the light turned yellow at the last minute.

 

I'm attaching a file today from my drive.  I went from Franklin where I live, to Norfolk, to Walpole, to Patriot place in Foxboro, to Wrentham Premium Outlets in Wrentham, and back to Franklin.  Its a 31.7 mile drive burning 5.5 kwh of battery, with some little ups and downs in the road not talking major steep hills but normal inclines.  I did recharge it at Patriot's place back up to 65% but MFM did not log that event.  In any case, this driving was up to 45mph max speed in EV mode, I would say high 30's on average.  No cruising at any point was at 25mph, that's just waaay too slow.  generally speaking I'm at least 35mph when I drive most of the time between that and 40.

 

At the rate I was going its about 32 miles per charge, you can calculate each trip individually or add them all up and confirm for yourself.

 

On the engine I can net high 50's I've seen it as high as 60.7mpg in the summertime driving city streets in Boston in hybrid mode with mass pike or storrow drive or I93 speeds of around 55 mph on average, max speed say 62mph.  This car does really well when you slow down a bit.  If you punch it to 75mph you're going to cut your mpg numbers from high 50's to low 40's maybe even high 30's depending on if the terrain in flat of hilly like Vermont.  That makes a difference also.

 

Levi suffers severely from low mpg numbers and EV range due to the fact that he lives in hilly areas.  His case is not the usual case, but the extreme duty case.  Plus he drives on dirt roads which worsen the range and mpg rating as its harder to roll on those.  Those cause him grief because the backup camera gets covered in mud and/or dust.

 

Also below I've attached the RAFE (running average fuel economy) of the ICE only in hybrid mode which translates to the gas range when you fill up the car.  First picture was taken June 15th, at 58.6 when you fill the tank the multiplier is 14 gallons so the range would be 820 miles in this case.  This number goes up and down depending on if you drive faster or slower in hybrid mode (not affected while driving 100% EV in EV now or Auto with a charged HV battery).  Let me go down to the car now and power it up and take a picture of the current RAFE...

 

OK, a picture or several pictures are a 1000 words.  Let me explain what you see below:

 

First picture is the RAFE as of today, 6/26 of 59.9 mpg.  Filling the tank means a predicted range of 838 miles.  Note that I drive with alot of thought content about what power to use when (EV or ICE) and how much power (try to not go over 65 amps on the battery and 2000 rpms on the ice) and I plan ahead alot so I never waste brake pads unless out of my control.

 

2nd picture is showing you the amount of fuel remaining in the tank.  Looks like a little over 1/4 tank to the right, but the actual number is 386.  A full tank is 1004.  So 386/1004 x 14 tells the amount of gas left in the tank.  In this case 5.38 gallons.

 

Range on gas is showing 282 miles, on the battery 7 miles.  282 miles / 5.38 gallons = 52.41 mpg.  Not in line with RAFE but RAFE is an average that goes up and down, on the last drive I used more gas than normal and my range dropped faster than the miles I drove and RAFE should be averaging down.  In fact it did, I did see it a couple of days ago at an all time high for me of 60.7.  Like I said depends on how you drive, the last day I went to Boston then to Malden then back to Milton and back to Franklin.  It was more % high driving and less city roads.

 

The battery is showing 7 miles range on 20% HVB remaining.  This would equal to about 35 miles per charge.  Last picture shows predicted range on next charge to 34 miles.  Note my driving style is full green, better today than the highway roads I took last trip, I didn't use climate, last time it was raining and I HAD to use the AC as the windows were constantly fogging from rain / 100% humidity otherwise, and the outside temp today is slightly warmer (70's) than the 60's it was while raining the other day.

 

As you can see, its possible to get much better numbers.  Note the blue coach bars in one of the pictures below, all full blue.  What you want to aim for especially in EV only mode.  When running the ICE one the highway long distance I bring the cruising bar to 1/2 just barely blue (less than half its yellow) at a cruise speed of 66mph.

 

And please go and search here you will see many posts about my long distance trips to VA, FL, Indiana, etc, with at least 48mpg at a constant cruise control speed of 66mph.

 

There is alot of proof of what can be done, but it really does depend on you and your driving.

 

-=>Raja. 

Attached Files


Edited by rbort, 26 June 2018 - 07:18 PM.

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