46 replies to this topic

[RickOzone]

What you described is precisely what is happening, The hybrid battery runs down quickly as the car is pumping out cold air. Any idling I do, even briefly at a drive through, seems to run the hybrid battery down quickly. However, if I keep a bit of a charge in the HVB (about 5 miles worth, with is about 33% since I rarely get more than 15 miles to a full charge), it takes much longer for the hybrid battery to run down. I wonder, is this because of the heat, because of the number of miles on the car or something else. It  seems to happen mostly but not only in weather extremes. The HVB died on me about 8 months ago and I had to get a new one from Ford, so I'm surprised it would be giving me trouble let alone charging for just 15 miles.

  

The hybrid battery icon represents a SOC (state of charge) actual range of 15 to 21.5%.  Therefore if you see the blue fill level drop 1/3 of the total height, then this represents only 2% of the overall capacity of the battery.  If your EV battery indicator shows 33% and for the same amount of energy use, the indicator will only drop 2% to 31%.  Therefore it will seem that the battery drops slower when it is charged above the hybrid range.

[dwdwone]

My battery gives me over 30 miles per charge, even around 35 these days. I once went 37 miles 100% EV with it.  15 miles is very little.  I can go over 20 miles even in 10 degree weather.  My battery never ever went only 15 miles, even on my 2013 when it was 4 years old.

 

I've never gotten more than 16 miles on a charge. I wish I knew how you were doing it!

 

 

I don't understand what you're saying, "The hybrid battery runs down quickly as the car is pumping out cold air."  What does that mean?

What I mean is that when I run my AC, it depletes my battery's charge (as shown in the image attachment in the original post). The battery icon, as shown, goes down to a sliver.
This also happens when my engine is running, such as at the drive through at the bank. More than a few minutes standing, which I refer to as idling, and the battery level drops significantly and the motor kicks in trying to charge i. Sometimes when this happens, the engine light and the wrench come on. Once I drive home and plug the car in, the wrench light goes away. Eventually so does the engine light.

 

 

There is no idling with the Cmax.  Engine is off when the car is not in motion unless the hybrid battery is completely drained, below 15% SOC.
That appears to be what is happening then. (see description of symptoms above)

 

If you keep 33% in the battery, are you in EV later mode and talking about the hybrid portion?  As in Auto mode the 33% is going to get used first before you get into the hybrid part.
I typically use up the entire charge. I do not "save" anything for the EV Later. So are you saying you are supposed to put it into EV Later and save some of the charge? My understanding was that you use it up and once its gone, the car runs in hybrid mode as opposed to all electric mode.

 

Below is a picture of my range, its not fully charge I don't charge it until I need it but you can see if full it would go to 34 miles estimated range.  On gas its showing 670 but that's after I burned about 3 gallons.  If I fill the tank it would show about 820 miles range on a full tank, again, its the way I drive it that makes this excessive range.
I believe you Raja, I'm just wondering how you do it!

 

 

-=>Raja.

[rbort]

As for the range of the battery, I'm guessing since you are in Texas perhaps you spend alot of time on the highways or on secondary roads without much traffic and perhaps are going quite fast with the battery, maybe upwards of 55 mph?

 

In order to get alot of miles from the battery, you need to try to close all the coach bars to full blue.  This means gentle acceleration no more than 2 bars on the Empower screen (out of 4 bars total with a charged HVB), braking at a slow and steady pace and anticipating all the stops way beforehand so you don't actually use the brake pads much at all and regenerate back into the battery to further increase your range.

 

Finally speed needs to be at 40mph max on the battery or less.  Ideally 20 to 40mph in the daytime works good.  At night 35 to 40 mph is better as speed is of the essence the car's lights are burning the battery all the time and you need to get there sooner than later, so try to drive in the upper portion of the range if possible.

 

If you hit an open stretch of road and need to go faster than 45mph, ideally start the engine and burn some gas.  Don't stress out the battery by driving fast with it and continuously (that's what driving fast does) put a high load on it.  The slower you go the less the load at constant speed.  Of course there is a higher load during acceleration, but that's momentary until you get up the speed and then the load drops.

 

Get the coach bars to full blue and your car's range should go up significantly.

 

Stepping back for a minute from that, you're in Texas (a hot place) and you've got a 2013 Cmax so its 5 + years old in the heat, so chances are you've probably had alot of opportunities to damage the battery from overheating unfortunately, so it may not at this time produce as many miles as it could when it was new.  You situation may be different if you just recently bought the car and say perhaps it came from a cooler climate like New England for example.  In any case you need to try to not overheat the battery if you're concerned about range.

 

On the 2nd thought in my head, if you say the hybrid battery drops pretty quick when the AC is on (that adds about 2 amps load when the car is cooled down to the battery, probably more in Texas where its much hotter), then it may be an indication that some of the cells in the battery are puffed up and can't take the load well at the end of the charge hence why the battery crashes much faster than expected.

 

In any case do NOT use the entire charge first and then go to hybrid mode.  The only reason to do that is that if you know for sure you will get to your destination on 100% EV, otherwise if its not possible then use the battery piecemeal where it works best and start the engine for the other parts of the trip.  This way you don't heat up the battery quickly by draining it in the first 10 minutes it should last you at least 1 hour of your trip if not more.

 

Hope this helps.

 

-=>Raja.

[dwdwone]

I bought the car 18 months ago from a car lot in Houston, where it is even hotter than where I am (Dallas). It is not uncommon for us to have 100 degree days for months at a time. The car had 71,000 miles on it when I purchased it. Because I work as a courier, I have put 100,000 miles on the car since then. I also had to replace the 12 volt battery right around 140,000 miles as it was completely dead.

All that said, I was never able to get more than 16 miles on a single charge,  If there is some secret to getting it to 35, I'd like to know!

I did reserve some of the charge today when I was driving and noticed that I didn't run into the problem of the battery going too low.

[rbort]

My bet is that your battery has lost some capacity due to the high heat that you guys have over there, plus all the miles on the car now (171k+).  The best way to check that is to charge the battery up to full, and then drive it on city streets at speeds of say 45mph or less until the whole battery is used up and the car goes into hybrid mode.  Reset the trip 1 meter before you start driving, and see the range and how many kwh comes out of the battery.  That will tell alot and I can correlate for you how many miles you "should be" able to get with the remaining capacity of the HVB.  Take a picture of the trip meter and post it here, also if the trip summery when you power off the right right after taking the first picture and lifetime summary if you have it.

 

-=>Raja.

Edited by rbort, 20 June 2018 - 05:13 AM.

[rbort]

So yesterday I drove another day to/in Boston this time without AC and with windows open.  It was 85 F like the other time or very similar and the HVB started out at 84F.  By the time I was an hour into it and in Boston the HVB temp was at 89F.  Remember the other time I rolled up the windows and turned on the AC, the HVB temp rose to 93F?  So again it goes back to what I said some years back, use the AC for your comfort don't try to use the AC thinking its going to cool the HVB any better.  The car seems to do better with all 4 windows open.  If you open only the front windows the air doesn't circulate as much in the back to get rid of the hot air being blown over the HVB and the cooling is not as efficient.  

 

Now the AC may help more if the outside temp is 100F for example, not sure have not tested that, but mid 80's AC or no AC I find that no AC was better.  Again, if its too hot for me I'm going to turn on the AC for me, but if its OK then I'm going to roll down the windows for the HVB cooling.

 

Today I took it 1 step further, I have removed the back panel to expose the HVB exhaust ducts.  Let's see what that will do.  I am hoping if the air can flow more freely it will help better than if its got nowhere to go which seems to be the case.

 

-=>Raja.

[Tom_NC_1]

So yesterday I drove another day to/in Boston this time without AC and with windows open.  It was 85 F like the other time or very similar and the HVB started out at 84F.  By the time I was an hour into it and in Boston the HVB temp was at 89F.  Remember the other time I rolled up the windows and turned on the AC, the HVB temp rose to 93F?  So again it goes back to what I said some years back, use the AC for your comfort don't try to use the AC thinking its going to cool the HVB any better.  The car seems to do better with all 4 windows open.  If you open only the front windows the air doesn't circulate as much in the back to get rid of the hot air being blown over the HVB and the cooling is not as efficient.  

 

Now the AC may help more if the outside temp is 100F for example, not sure have not tested that, but mid 80's AC or no AC I find that no AC was better.  Again, if its too hot for me I'm going to turn on the AC for me, but if its OK then I'm going to roll down the windows for the HVB cooling.

 

Today I took it 1 step further, I have removed the back panel to expose the HVB exhaust ducts.  Let's see what that will do.  I am hoping if the air can flow more freely it will help better than if its got nowhere to go which seems to be the case.

 

-=>Raja.

 

Today I removed the panel that covers the HVB fan exhaust ducts and with the car on and fan running I can feel the exhaust air blowing freely. This next week I should be able to give this change a good test. The weather here will have highs in the 90s this next week so all drives will be with the AC running. 

Recent high temps (Lows around 80 and highs to the mid 90s) have caused me to restrict usage to only no more than 1/2 HVB charge per day even though I am driving around 80 miles daily. The HVB usually starts out around 85ºf and reached a high of 104ºf twice last week when the outside temp reached 98ºf. What little charging I am doing is done late in the evening and is about a 1/2 charge of the HVB.

 

Tom

[rbort]

Yesterday while driving I found that its important to open the rear windows more than the front windows.  I had the front windows both cracked 1 inch temp outside was low 60's and the HVB fan wasn't running (rear windows closed but I was comfortable).  Internal temp was 75F.  I opened the rear windows but left the front windows the way they were and the internal temp quickly dropped to 71F and the HVB fan started running.  HVB was at 80F.  Remind yourself you need air to cool the HVB more important than leaving the windows up for comfort and letting the HVB stay hotter longer.

 

If you close the front windows complete, then you get some resonance air sound which is annoying.  So, the choices are all 4 windows open or if not then rear windows open and front windows down a couple of inches each.  This works better than front windows open and rear windows closed.  All this testing was done at night without AC with the HVB warmer than OAT by 15 degrees +.  I also have to report that with this configuration even though I'm driving home on EV power the HVB temp is actually dropping over time due to the fan running.  If the fan doesn't run then the temp won't drop nearly at all and may even rise with usage. 

 

-=>Raja.

[dwdwone]

To clarify, the plug in charge refers to the HVB?

My HVB is a year old because the old one died. However, I did not have the problem of the battery overheating before. Of course, since the old one died, there may be an issue somewhere else.

Today I took a picture (attached) of what I think you called the "leaves". It shows that the battery is in fact overheating. Note this occured as soon as the plug in (HVB?) charge went to zero. Again this never used to happen.

 

Attached Files

•  cmax leaves.jpg   158.69KB   1 downloads

[rbort]

Plug in charge fills up the entire HVB so you can drive it 100% EV until it runs down and you're back to hybrid mode -- same HVB but drained working in a lower charge range between 21.5% and 15.5% typically.

 

So you had your original HVB replaced already?  Did you have to pay for it or warranty work?  What do you mean it died exactly, was the car not driveable or was the battery not giving much miles?

 

Yes while I've never seen the 'battery temp' on the HVB car icon, it looks like indeed the HVB is overheated.  It can certainly happen depending on the charge level of the battery when you started, when you charged it, the initial temp, the outside temp, and how hard you drove the battery or how quickly you drained it in other words.

 

Your picture doesn't show the outside temp, I assume the car was off at the time you took the picture.

 

-=>Raja.

[dwdwone]

It was very strange. First my audio stopped working. This lasted for about 3 weeks. Ford told me I needed a new MFT. Then one morning my car wouldn't start. I called roadside service. They told me the 12V battery was gone. I had it towed to Ford, who confirmed this was the case and put in a new 12V battery. It is still under warranty.

It seems that the outside temperature is not as relevant to the problem as I'd expected. In fact, last year it was much hotter and I didn't have this problem. Today it was 83 degrees and it still happened. It meaning the battery temp on the car icon. So what is happening is that as soon as the plug in charge is gone, I get the 'Battery temp' message. Outside temp does not seem to be a factor. So long as I keep some of the plug in charge in reserve, I do not get the Battery temp on the display. However, this has not happened before.

[rbort]

Do you know if the cooling fan for the battery runs at all?  You may want to remove the 4 torx bolts and the one nut and remove the back panel around the tailgate latch.  You remove the carpet cover, the cover with the funnel in it, the 4 bolts and the nut, and pull off that panel.  You should be able to see the 12v battery more, and on the left there is a channel where the HVB cooling air comes out.  Check to see if that is working.  It should definitely be on if the battery temp icon is indicated.  You should feel the air blowing out easily with the cover removed.  

 

If the fan is not blowing at all that would explain your battery getting overheated every time.  The cover takes less than 5 minutes to remove, and if you don't have a torx 20 wrench you can use a flat blade small screwdriver they are not that tight they will come out easily for you.

 

-=>Raja.

[dwdwone]

Thanks Raja, I'll check that out. I know I can hear a fan going when I am plugged in abd charging, but whether or not is the cooling fan I don't know.

[rbort]

Wrong fan.  You're hearing the charging fan going that's different.  If you fold down the rear right seat and put your hand between the back of the seat and the plastic and curl your fingers towards the back underneath you should feel that flow.  That's outside air coming it to cool the charging circuit, not related to the HVB cooling fan.

 

-=>Raja.

[RickOzone]

To clarify, the plug in charge refers to the HVB?

My HVB is a year old because the old one died. However, I did not have the problem of the battery overheating before. Of course, since the old one died, there may be an issue somewhere else.
...
They told me the 12V battery was gone. I had it towed to Ford, who confirmed this was the case and put in a new 12V battery. It is still under warranty.

The HVB = High Voltage Battery (lithium type) and is very expensive, about $7k and heavy, 300 pounds.

The 12 V battery is a conventional lead acid battery like those found in most cars.

Therefore your 12V battery died, not your HVB.

If you stop your car when you get the high battery temperature message, then listen for the fan noise at the back left side, you should hear it running. Probably the car needs to stay on to keep the fan running but I’m not sure about that. Also open the back lift gate and feel for warm air coming out from the plastic panel opening for the lift gate latch.

[rbort]

Yes the car needs to stay running for the HVB fan to keep doing, or you need to plug it in and it will while charging if the car is not hot inside, remember there is that temp difference trigger between the HVB and the car's internal temp otherwise the fan won't run.

 

-=>Raja.

[ScottB]

All that said, I was never able to get more than 16 miles on a single charge,  If there is some secret to getting it to 35, I'd like to know!

 

Well, I am not an expert on this car, but I have been driving it for 3-4 months now and I am getting around 28-29 miles per charge. I have a 2017 Energi Titanium with 6K miles.  I do get 5.5 Kw of battery power from a charge. As Rbort says, charge, reset trip 1, drive local till HVB is used up and read trip 1 stats for KW used. Mine says 5.5 KW on the trip 1 display. If yours is not close, your battery has degraded and that will reduce your EV miles. Compared to a new battery, the percentage is  "your KW"/5.5 KW X 100.

 

So the secret to getting more miles is:

 

1.  Don't use AC or heat. No accesory power except running lights and radio.  Wipers draw power too, but have to use in the rain, but your milage will go down in the rain. I drive with windows open as long as its in the 70's or low 80's. When I turn on the ac I usually turn on the motor too.

 

2. Brake easy or not at all, accerate slow, stay off the highway. You won't get upper twenties if you drive on the highway. The slower you drive the more EV miles you will get. I drive 24 miles one way to work on 2 lane roads going around 35-45 mph. Going 65 reduces my miles by at least 5.

 

3.  I was getting low 20ish miles, then I used Low gear all the time for a couple of days, and my EV miles jumped up to upper 20's. This is speculative, but batteries can develop resistance to taking charge, and if you apply a higher than normal voltage to them the resistance can be broken down. I know when you use low, you get max regen charging to the battery, and that can be pretty powerful. I speculate that "conditioned" my battery a little better and I was accepting more charge at night on the charger. I do know I don't use low full time anymore and I still get the same 29ish miles.  I typically only use low now down a really long hill or when getting off the highway.

 

4. Keep your tires pumped up to 38-40 psi. Also you must be on different tires, which can make a big difference in miles due to rolling resistance.

[rbort]

I'm in Montreal right now, its hot, but not extremely hot.  In the 80's.  I go from Nun's Island to Blainville.  I used to do it before with my 2013 Cmax no problem 100% EV the whole way, but these days with the 2017 Cmax I don't do it any more.  I start the engine on route 15 when I can go 50 mph and use the battery when stuck in traffic.  On the way home this evening the battery went up from 87 to 91F, and I used the engine too.  Using the battery on the highway even at 50mph and doing extended shallow upgrades is hard on the battery, it can raise the temp by 2 degrees in just 2 minutes of doing that.  

 

My remedy, charge less and use more gas.  There will be time enough later to use the battery 100% in colder weather, for now keep it easy on the battery and burn some gas, after all, the car DID come with an engine :)  Not only that, but I filled up in Hooksett, NH cheap gas at $2.62 a gallon.  Drove all the way to Montreal, been driving around here for 2 days, and still have more that 1/2 a tank of gas.  I think I will be able to go all the way back to Hooksett and fill up there on the way home.  I used to fill up in Swanton before going to Canada, but the Cmax with the excellent MPG and range allows me to fill in Hooksett where its 37 cents cheaper per gallon than close to the border where they charge a premium at $2.99 a gallon, still cheaper than Canada but not cheap for the USA.

 

Scott, don't go 65 on the highway in EV power, its really hard on the battery especially with any incline trying to maintain 65 on battery is crazy load.    Better just start the engine and save the battery for 35 to 45mph like you have been doing.  If I have to go on the highway for 1 exit for example, and stay in EV power, I usually stay to 50-55 mph tops on the battery.  I wouldn't start the engine if the trip is intended to be 100% EV, but if the engine is already in use and warm then I would fire it up for that 1 exit worth.

 

Use L to slow down going down steep hills or to get off the highway and onto the on-ramp until the speed is about right then shift back to D.  Use hill decent to hold a specific speed you want going down a hill.  If too fast while in hill decent, switch to L until the car gets to the right slower speed and then back to D.  If too slow release hill decent so you pickup some speed and then put it back on.  So many nice options with this car after some time you get to be an expert in using all the options.  :)

 

-=>Raja.

[Billyk24]

Well, I am not an expert on this car, but I have been driving it for 3-4 months now and I am getting around 28-29 miles per charge. I have a 2017 Energi Titanium with 6K miles.  I do get 5.5 Kw of battery power from a charge. As Rbort says, charge, reset trip 1, drive local till HVB is used up and read trip 1 stats for KW used. Mine says 5.5 KW on the trip 1 display. If yours is not close, your battery has degraded and that will reduce your EV miles. Compared to a new battery, the percentage is  "your KW"/5.5 KW X 100.

 

So the secret to getting more miles is:

 

1.  Don't use AC or heat. No accesory power except running lights and radio.  Wipers draw power too, but have to use in the rain, but your milage will go down in the rain. I drive with windows open as long as its in the 70's or low 80's. When I turn on the ac I usually turn on the motor too.

 

2. Brake easy or not at all, accerate slow, stay off the highway. You won't get upper twenties if you drive on the highway. The slower you drive the more EV miles you will get. I drive 24 miles one way to work on 2 lane roads going around 35-45 mph. Going 65 reduces my miles by at least 5.

 

3.  I was getting low 20ish miles, then I used Low gear all the time for a couple of days, and my EV miles jumped up to upper 20's. This is speculative, but batteries can develop resistance to taking charge, and if you apply a higher than normal voltage to them the resistance can be broken down. I know when you use low, you get max regen charging to the battery, and that can be pretty powerful. I speculate that "conditioned" my battery a little better and I was accepting more charge at night on the charger. I do know I don't use low full time anymore and I still get the same 29ish miles.  I typically only use low now down a really long hill or when getting off the highway.

 

4. Keep your tires pumped up to 38-40 psi. Also you must be on different tires, which can make a big difference in miles due to rolling resistance.

 

Many of the forum members run mid 40's to 50 psi in their tires.  Not sure you want to jump that high?  Try moving upward 3 psi and see how it feels.  Also, the car is a hybrid.   The well known names on this forum normally do not try to drive first in EV only as long as possible.   They flip between "auto" and "EV later".

 

[spirilis]

Curious about charging - anecdote from today, outside temp was 67F, HVB's MAXTEMPBECM (forscan lite) started around 86F this morning before leaving for errands, rose up to 91F by the time I got home, I plugged in right away and... upon completion, MAXTEMPBECM was back down to 86F.  This is 240V/12A btw.  I understand the unit pulls outside air during charging (another thread detailed that) but this sounds like a dominating factor when temps are lower.

 

Last night after my lithium deep fry commute back home was overwith, I let the battery cool down a few hours, then plugged in (104F by that time) and 1 hour into the charge, checked temps and it was reading 100F.  Not a rise... a fall.  Outside temps were in the 80's still.

Edited by spirilis, 21 July 2018 - 11:24 AM.