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What Should The High Voltage Battery KW Capacity Be?


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13 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   John A Smith

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Posted 21 March 2018 - 04:09 PM

My 2014 Energi is almost 4 years old with about 65K miles.  I was getting 21 to 24 miles on a full charge when new but now I'm getting 14 to 15 miles.  I have a 220 volt charger at home and I use the OEM portable 110 volt charger occasionally when traveling. I would guess 20% to 25% of my total miles have been EV.  I just reviewed my online "Trip & Charge Log" and see that my battery is putting out 3.9 to 4.1KW.  The battery new was rated at 7.6KW so 3.5KW is missing which pretty much accounts for my lost range.  I hope someone can help me with my questions:

1: The Ford HV battery warranty is 8 years or 100,000 miles.  Is there a standard that determines whether a decline to 4KW capacity after 4 years is outside of acceptable? 

2:  My local dealer wants $120 to run a diagnostic.  If the diagnostic shows the battery is defective they will submit a claim to Ford to replace it under warranty.  What can they possibly see in a diagnostic that would show the present capacity of the battery other than the "Trip and Charge Log" which pretty much shows exactly how much the battery is holding.  I think their just shining me off.  Would you pay the $120? 

Thanks in advance for your feedback.  









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#2 OFFLINE   plus 3 golfer

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Posted 21 March 2018 - 07:16 PM

I don't know whether anyone has posted the battery tests that Idaho National Laboratory has done on the Energi during their testing of the Energi over several years.  I would think Ford should run tests like Idaho National Laboratory did in computing the numbers in the graph below.  One  would measure the energy capacity of the HVB currently and compare it to the nominal 7.6 kWh initial capacity.  As you can see on the graph I put together from INL's testing, at around 70 k miles the HVB lost about 7% of it's baseline capacity.  I would believe that the 7% loss would directly affect the usable EV only kWh.  So, the usable EV only capacity would drop about 0.6 kWh.  At about 127k miles one vehicel lost 14 % of it's initial capacity about 1 kWh. Two vehicles at around 150k miles lost about 23% of their initial capacity or about 1.8 kWh.  

 

The question is how much capacity loss is warranted by Ford, if capacity loss is warranted at all for normal battery degradation? Ford can't control how one might "use" the battery.

 

Edit: I added the four Fusion Energi that were also tested to the C-Max data and compiled a composite curve for HVB loss vs miles.

 

Attached File  INL Energi Testing.JPG   95.79KB   1 downloads

 

Attached File  INL Energi Testing 2.JPG   66.55KB   0 downloads


Edited by plus 3 golfer, 21 March 2018 - 08:45 PM.


#3 OFFLINE   jzchen

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Posted 22 March 2018 - 02:25 AM

My wife's now ex C-MAX warranty book noted in clear terms that degradation in capacity is not covered and considered normal wear and tear.

 

Since CA is real strict about emissions, this is a slight conflict as decreased battery equals higher emissions...

 

But, I wouldn't waste my money.  I would expect if the battery had absolutely no EV capacity then Ford would cover it as defective....



#4 OFFLINE   Tom_NC_1

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Posted 22 March 2018 - 04:47 AM

My 2014 Energi is almost 4 years old with about 65K miles.  I was getting 21 to 24 miles on a full charge when new but now I'm getting 14 to 15 miles.  I have a 220 volt charger at home and I use the OEM portable 110 volt charger occasionally when traveling. I would guess 20% to 25% of my total miles have been EV.  I just reviewed my online "Trip & Charge Log" and see that my battery is putting out 3.9 to 4.1KW.  The battery new was rated at 7.6KW so 3.5KW is missing which pretty much accounts for my lost range.  I hope someone can help me with my questions:

1: The Ford HV battery warranty is 8 years or 100,000 miles.  Is there a standard that determines whether a decline to 4KW capacity after 4 years is outside of acceptable? 

2:  My local dealer wants $120 to run a diagnostic.  If the diagnostic shows the battery is defective they will submit a claim to Ford to replace it under warranty.  What can they possibly see in a diagnostic that would show the present capacity of the battery other than the "Trip and Charge Log" which pretty much shows exactly how much the battery is holding.  I think their just shining me off.  Would you pay the $120? 

Thanks in advance for your feedback.  

 

Although the HVB size is 7.6kWh the usable capacity per charge in a new HVB new is about 5.5kWh. The trip and charge log of 3.9 to 4.1kWh is showing the current usable capacity. So you loss is not 3.5kWh but rather about 1.5kWh. This is also about the same amount of loss my C-Max has at almost 5 years of service. 

 

I have had Ford service detail my concern in the service record since my loss is likely related to HVB overheating in the summer of 2015. I have not pushed for them to fix it since I believe the loss is not extreme enough.

 

Tom



#5 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 22 March 2018 - 07:15 AM

To check your capacity, reset the trip meter, charge to 100%, and go for a city street EV drive.

 

At 1.1kwh out of the trip meter, you should be somewhere 80 to 85% battery left.

At 2.2kwh used, should be somewhere around 60-62%.

At 3.3 around 40%

At 4.4, around 15%

At 5.5 should be half way into the hybrid.

 

My old Cmax after 70k miles used to be 82, 59, 37, 15, 0 around 5.3-5.4kwh.  2017 Cmax is higher than those numbers I remember 85 then 62 but not sure the last couple of points though I get around 5.6kwh out of a full charge.

 

Always remember drain your battery slowly for longer life. 

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 22 March 2018 - 07:18 AM.


#6 OFFLINE   John A Smith

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 10:10 AM

I ran a KW test from a full charge now five times.  On three occasions the battery provided 3.9KW until it reached the hybrid mode and the engine started.  On one occasion 4.0KW and the other 4.1KW.  In normal driving I get 14 to 15 miles until the engine starts in hybrid mode.  I used to get 20 to 24 miles on the exact same route.  The weather is ideal for charging and using the battery being in the mid 60's.  Do I have to go through my dealer or is there a way to ask for Ford assistance directly? 


Edited by John A Smith, 23 March 2018 - 10:10 AM.


#7 OFFLINE   dontfret

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 01:40 PM

this topic has been asked and answered over the past 3 years.  1.  Ford will not state what the warranty limit is - the 8 years (10 in California) and 100,000 has no meaning without a performance required - like "retains 80% of original capacity" or "to hold a deliverable 5 kWh versus 5.5 when new").  2.  I have been to the mat with Ford at two different dealers, the response from corporate is "tell the customer the degradation is normal wear and tear" and to me on phone with Ford Customer Service that the "warranty limit is proprietary information" so they WILL NEVER ALLOW THIS TO BE A WARRANTY ISSUE.  ?? How can you offer a warranty but not divulge what the warranty is for?????!!!??? 3.  There is a court suit pending as a class action to force them to define the warranty and remedy vehicles that fall below this.  Same company that had a successful suit against Nissan Leaf.  But as it winds it way through the courst, expect your car will be sold or dead by then....  4.  My 2013 can deliver about 3.7 kWh available when fully charged, around 11-16 miles EV only mode depending on air temperature and how heavy my foot is :)  5.  Ford ran all the described tests, confirmed my numbers.  Then see item 2 above where they told me through dealer and on phone to pound sand.  6.  You can get a very accurate read on your battery health inexpensively by getting a bluetooth OBD2 reader, and android phone and loading TorquePro, then programming the OBD value for "Energy to Empty", which measures exactly this value.  You may cry if (as with Tom_nc_1 and me) your car has experienced a hot summer.  7.  At some point I decided to let it go and just enjoy my hybrid. and for now, a ;plug-in hybrid.  My 2013 Ruby is still the funnest car I've had  :happy feet:



#8 OFFLINE   jzchen

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Posted 25 March 2018 - 03:56 PM

I ran a KW test from a full charge now five times. On three occasions the battery provided 3.9KW until it reached the hybrid mode and the engine started. On one occasion 4.0KW and the other 4.1KW. In normal driving I get 14 to 15 miles until the engine starts in hybrid mode. I used to get 20 to 24 miles on the exact same route. The weather is ideal for charging and using the battery being in the mid 60's. Do I have to go through my dealer or is there a way to ask for Ford assistance directly?


Overall my wife's showed an avg of 73.x MPG. There was a new speed dependent sound that concerned may have been the transmission. After a while of it staying constant/not getting any louder, I was less concerned, but my wife held on to the original concern and went on to trade the car in. I replaced the under engine splash shield and transmission anti-roll bracket. There was still slight scratching on the transmission casing that I'm not sure how got there.

I guess the Ford engineers knew that building a Prius beater would take it's toll on the battery and factored that in when writing the warranty manual. Please reference it before going the uphill battle of trying to get your battery replaced.

#9 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 09:59 AM

We talked about this 4 years ago at least.  I used to tell people don't charge it full all the time or don't leave it full, don't charge in the heat, don't park in the sun, don't drive it hard or stay in auto mode until flat, etc etc and for the old timers on here who remember I got people telling me I plug it in when I get home and don't worry about it, I drive how I want to drive, I park where I want, etc etc and I'm not going to worry about it because Ford designed the car and it should just work, plus I'm doing this every day and I don't have any issues with my battery.  Search the forum going back some years and you'll find all these posts, some people practically laughed me out of the forum.  I told them you won't see problems right away, but within a couple of seasons you should start to notice the difference.  Now we got people who are down to the 3's in kwh output from the HVB, and they did what they did, I did what I preached to do, and my first 2013 Cmax HVB was still putting out around 5.4kwh at 70k+ miles and I even posted trip pictures to show that.

 

Anyway water under the bridge now, it is what it is.  And in reality its not possible for the HVB not to wear out at all, they all will wear out, however, you can make the difference in how long the battery lastly based on how you treat it.  The proof is here all in this forum.  Only one guy got the HVB replaced under warranty, mipmapped I think his name was, and honestly he didn't do anything different with the new battery in the way of treatment and I read that the new battery has also lost capacity now and is quite degraded, so he didn't learn anything from the first incident if Ford kept replacing batteries under warranty they would be out of business.

 

You have the power to make the battery last or not, depending on the habits.  I always try to think of what is better and what isn't, and try to do the best I can to prevent damage to the battery.  When you do damage its all additive, so a little here a little there all of a sudden adds up over time to something you notice.  Now that I have a new 2017 this time around I'm going to try to be even more critical of my actions to preserve the battery.  For the first 5 years I did everything even without a scan gage, but this past December I got one so I can use it this upcoming summer to manage the battery better even though I did OK without one I know I can do better now.

 

I am in San Diego now and my 2017 sits in the garage with a deep cycle battery jumped to it so the 12v battery won't be able to get low, the HVB is sitting at only 30% and the car is not plugged in.  Its always best to store the car with a lower charge level than leave it plugged in and store it at 100%.   Alot of you guys know that now, but many of us didn't hence why I tried to preach to the crowd as best as I can to help.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 26 March 2018 - 09:59 AM.

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#10 OFFLINE   John A Smith

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 07:26 PM

I wish I had made note of the KW battery capacity when my C-Max was new.   Does anyone remember theirs?  It should have been at least 6 KW I would think.  



#11 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 07:35 PM

Around 5.6kwh per charge.

 

-=>Raja.


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#12 OFFLINE   SyNRG

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Posted 25 April 2018 - 10:40 AM

I wish I had made note of the KW battery capacity when my C-Max was new.   Does anyone remember theirs?  It should have been at least 6 KW I would think.  

 

For me when new it was around 5.5 - 5.6.



#13 OFFLINE   Patrick Saindon

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 09:53 AM

When new, mine was 5.9kw in 2015

 Still have a picture of it.



#14 OFFLINE   ScottB

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 02:49 PM

I have a 2017 Cmax Energi and I get 5.4-5.5 KW out of a full charge. This ouput is when the car turns off EV now mode and goes into hybrid mode (auto). There is still power in the hybrid part of the battery that gets used, but I don't know how much that is.










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