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Curiosity regarding ICE/EV mix from stops in EV Later/hybrid mode


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9 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   cr08

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 08:38 AM

Something that has caught my attention lately and I'm curious how much this is down to programming or learned driver habits and if anyone else has seen this.

 

But essentially from a dead stop in either selected EV Later or depleted charge hybrid mode once the ICE is completely warmed up and ready to take a load regardless of OAT it seems like EV provides propulsion for maybe a second and then the ICE takes 100% of the load. This is with anywhere between 1-2 bars of accel (I actively limit to 2 bars at all times, it is comfortable everyday accel for me). This is all before getting even up to 5-10mph. 

 

I do understand the EV to ICE threshold completely but as I've understood from other hybrids on the market they've tended to either have more EV leadup time at launch before the ICE kicked in and/or provided additional EV assist along with the ICE at low speed acceleration. At least for mine I have VERY rarely seen this happen and almost always seems to prefer full ICE load at low speed accelerations. This is also regardless of hybrid charge level. If at a higher SOC of course the EV/ICE threshold is raised but the moment the ICE kicks in it seems to immediately go 100% ICE load even under accel.









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#2 OFFLINE   spirilis

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 09:17 AM

Yeah my guess is it's a simple tuning thing Ford settled on.  I understand the "atkinson cycle" design of an ICE makes it less-than-optimal for handling starting torque scenarios but depending on how reliable and flexible Ford's valvetrain is, they might be successful in delivering torque earlier on, or maybe the "torque" is actually the engine spinning up as a generator while the electric motor is producing the torque based on generator input instead of battery (thus, your dashboard gauge would show that as engine-only when in fact there's some electrons in between the engine and motor but not necessarily battery-depletion going on?)


Edited by spirilis, 30 January 2018 - 09:18 AM.


#3 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 11:22 AM

What are you guys talking about?  Put the display on Empower and you will have about 1.5 bars (average) of power in EV later or in a depleted HV battery.   If you are ginger with the gas, you can accelerate to 15 mph in EV power and then kick in the ICE.  Its that simple.  The ice starts when you go over the "top" of the EV power available, regardless of anything else.

 

If the hybrid battery has some charge in it, it will assist the ice climbing hills to keep the MPG numbers up.  If it doesn't or when it runs out then its all ICE climbing.

 

-=>Raja.



#4 OFFLINE   cr08

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 11:46 AM

Please re-read my post. I am completely aware of that. But in every other hybrid I have researched over the years, most seem to apply some EV assist in addition to the ICE when accelerating at low speeds. In fact as spirilis pointed out, with an atkinson cycle engine this is almost necessary with the low torque output especially at low engine speeds. But as I have noted already despite ANY other factors, 99% of the time what I am seeing is when launching once the threshold has been met even under reasonably moderate acceleration it just goes 100% ICE and rarely if ever any EV assist. In fact the only time I ever reliably even see a sliver of EV assist is at highway speeds and going up a tiny incline or accelerating. On flat surface streets in hybrid/EV Later mode it essentially seems it is either full EV or full ICE, never a mix of the two under any circumstance when the engine is fully warmed up. I can see just using ICE only when cruising at a steady speed but it seem inefficient to solely rely on it for acceleration.

 

Not necessarily pointing out a problem. When driving in town in reasonably warm weather I have found in EV Later I can EASILY break 45mpg and have regularly seen 50+. Just seems to be an oddity in the programming compared to normal operation from other hybrids on the road. If what spirilis is suggesting is true regarding the ICE possibly generating power to go back out through the electric motor versus driving the wheels directly, I wouldn't necessarily mind it as much but the power display is unintuitive in that regard. Maybe I should get the remainder of my gauges in Torque configured to find more detailed powerflows in this regard.



#5 OFFLINE   fotomoto

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 01:14 PM

Something that has caught my attention lately 

 

^ That you're just now noticing it, could it be more temperature related?   I'm not much help here because I primarily use EV Later on highway trips and don't monitor the particulars then (just set the CC and drive).  For example, I even have wx related issues with EV Now-->ICE activation in regards to battery temp/SOC and throttle input; sometimes it activates (grrrrr) and sometimes it doesn't.  Even on nice sunny day if your battery is too cold from the previous overnight soak, it can't supply as much power.  Lots of variables.  



#6 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 02:32 PM

I'm trying to understand your point, but I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for.  The ICE when running at slow speeds has too much power some of it goes to propelling the car the rest goes to charging the HVB.  This is true on level roads at slow speeds.  At inclines the EV battery will help the ICE if its charged enough and if not it doesn't need to the ICE can do all the work.  

 

The car is designed so that the EV battery helps the ICE (in the case of the 2013 model) so that the MPGs of the ICE don't drop below 20mpg, that being said, if it can.  In other words if you go up a steep incline for 3 miles, it will help the ICE for the first mile for example, but once exhausted its all on the ICE.

 

Downhill the battery recharges back or on level roads the ICE will be recharging the hybrid portion of the battery.  That's the portion that counts, the full HVB is set aside if you are in EV later you're only working with the hybrid portion and that's it.  If you run out of the HVB then its the same, you're working with the hybrid portion of the battery.

 

It is not ideal in general to discharge and recharge the battery all the time.  Its best during steady state especially for the 2013 models to keep the ICE running so that the hybrid portion of the battery fills up 100% and then the ICE will net higher MPG numbers, 45-50mpg going 65mph on level roads in the summer without AC.  AC costs a little bit as you would expect.

 

So in the 2013 models the car used to shut off the ICE down a hill and try to maintain 65mph as long as possible on the Hybrid battery.  Once exhausted the engine would start and you start the cycle of recharging the battery.  This drain and recharge actually net LESS mpg than if you burped the gas pedal just a bit to reignite the ICE once the downhill section is over.  You want to try to keep the hybrid battery full charged, meaning +2% of the EV later set point, so that the ICE will net you higher MPG numbers on your long distance trip.

 

I the 2017 model Ford realized this isn't the best way to go about things and have relaxed the heavy charging the ICE used to do once the hyrbid battery is depleted.   The car is not less aggressive with this and this way the ICE doesn't drop down so low in MPGs when recharging the HVB.

 

Hope this helps you understand things better.

 

-=>Raja.


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#7 OFFLINE   spirilis

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 06:35 PM

That's a cool observation about the 2017's. Since it's the only one I've used I wasn't aware of the previous model's behavior. So it used to rev up a bit just to recharge the batt?

I can confirm my 2017 generally keeps the hybrid battery closer to a central range and has no bones about engaging the ICE when it seems silly to me based on the battery SoC... but human intuition isn't always the best gauge of efficiency.

#8 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 07:57 PM

No it doesn't rev up, it just charges harder and drops the mpg numbers by putting more charge load on the engine.

 

It takes considerably longer to recharge the hybrid battery with the 2017 than it did with the 2013, and the 2017 gives you less threshold to keep charging, it wants to start the engine at more opportunities than the 2013 did.

 

-=>Raja.



#9 OFFLINE   cr08

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 12:19 PM

Sorry for the later reply. Been trying to wrap my head around this a little more to try and better explain it so I apologize if my thoughts are still clear as mud on this.

 

As a visual representation I and focus on the Engage screen. My original assumption of operation is to see equal or close ratios of ICE and EV operation on takeoff when acceleration is most needed. Now any time I am in charge depleted hybrid mode or EV Later I almost always stay on this screen and monitor ICE/EV operation and for nearly the whole year I've had this car I have never seen more than a very brief amount of EV assist on launch and the remainder of acceleration is all ICE with the accompanied 2-3 bars of ICE usage and around ~3k rpms. Any EV assist is usually a very small sliver under added acceleration and/or hill climb.

 

Ironically (and frustratingly!) enough shortly after my last post on this thread the thing made me a liar and I did see what I was originally hoping to expect in that I was seeing 1-1.5 bars of ICE and about the same level of EV usage for the entire acceleration up to 35-45mph. I have had it occur a few times since then but not reliably unfortunately. I need to try and replicate this.

 

On the side topic of significant operational changes between model years, I wonder if any of this has been 'backported' via calibration updates to earlier model years. Unfortunately unless either a) A dealer is proactive, b) a specific malfunction requires the updates or c) You specifically request it, calibration updates are never actively maintained which is sad considering how dependent our vehicles are on software more than most.


Edited by cr08, 04 February 2018 - 12:24 PM.


#10 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 12:54 PM

This is how it works:

 

If the engine is cold, the EV does more than the ice as the engine is limited to 1500 rpms during warmup.

 

If the engine is hot, the EV will assist the engine based on the charge level of the hybrid portion, regardless of HVB level.  When you push EV later, you're running hybrid and equal to a dead HVB unless you switch back to Auto and back to EV the the hybrid gets a new "life" meaning it will assist the ICE more until its drained.

 

If you are climbing hills, EV will assist the engine to try to maintain at least 20mpg until depleted.

 

What else can I explain?  Think of the above statements and apply them to what you're seeing and it will make sense, all the mud will clear up :)

 

Remember that EV range when you push EV later goes from +3 to -7 of the set point max ends, general range is +2 to -5.  So if you push EV later at 60%, the battery can range from 55 to 62% on average, if you are milking it you maybe get it down to 53%, or if you are hard on the gas while the engine is still cold you can also get it down that low.  On the high side while recharging on the highway once you get to +2 % you start making much better mpg numbers, you might in some situations get to +3%, but that is rare the conditions need to be ideal, just enough slope so the engine doesn't shut off at around 1 bar power for quite some time. 

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 04 February 2018 - 12:58 PM.









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