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Poll: I'd buy another CMax Energi if


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52 replies to this topic

#41 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 08:56 AM

The battery wears out depending on the user.  No battery can be warrantied forever, and there are many different applications that affect battery life.  You know that I-phone warranties the battery in my 7 phone for 500 cycles saying it will have at least 80% capacity by then.  I'm already at 786 cycles and I'm down to 86% capacity.

 

So let's suppose Ford did warranty the battery, and they did for this particular person, mipmapped.  They replaced his battery and within 1 to 2 years his new battery was already worn out again...

 

As for the car, some people can commute to work on a battery charge.  Some people get there and can charge there to come back.  Imagine those people who charge the battery twice a day to go and come back to work, how long do you think its going to last?  Remember that many people are trying to use the small battery to drive the car around as if there is no engine.  Some people charge, go to work, charge, go to eat lunch, charge, go back home, and charge, go out to go shopping all the in same day.  

 

Remember that the more you charge and discharge the battery, the hotter it gets and extended times of being hotter affects battery life also.  Hot summers don't help either.  The point is, if there was a warranty on the battery for wear, I'd bet almost everyone can get the battery replaced within the warranty period by using the first battery exclusively and saving the engine for the 2nd half of the life of the car.

 

I'm already on my 2nd Cmax, unfortunately mine got hit (#1) and the insurance totaled it and I ended up buying another knowing how well the car performed and drove I couldn't be without it.  Sure I understand the limits of the battery and the heat needs to be watched, and I try not to use it for any stressful things if the engine is hot and available on longer trips.  Some people never bothered to piecemeal the battery out, they left the house in Auto, drove off and stayed on battery until it was drained and the car automatically switched over to the engine.  Sometimes draining the battery in 15 minutes or less by driving 70mph on the highway.  None of that helped of course, this forum has been a great asset to all, with loads of information on the to do's and the to don'ts, but some people didn't want to listen or ignored the micro management of the battery hybrid system.  Now here we are and it is what it is.  Just remember that no matter what, if you want to use the battery exclusively its not going to last as long.  You'll end up with a worn battery and a new engine.  Maybe best to share the load more even if you do the engine still ended up being used about 1/3 to less than 1/2 of the time as in hybrid mode you still coast without the engine.

 

-=>Raja.









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#42 OFFLINE   Tony_NC

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 10:25 AM

rbort-

 

keep in mind, some battery packs are not as good as the next.  Same owner, doing everything in his power to to maximize battery life will fail if the battery pack is not 100% perfect.   Problems dont have to be the owners fault.  Just like some battery packs last longer for someone who believes his method of prolonging battery life works when in fact his methods are actually harmful.

 

some problems may have begun during the manufacturing process and the owner of that pack is now being talked down to as if he shortened battery life.

 

I am suggesting that Manufacturers should have a warranty chart that is worst case scenario.   That after so many months or ev miles, the battery capacity will be X number of KW.  Extend this out for the 8 yrs, if this is the warranted duration.

 

It would be simple to accept, understand and act upon by both the buyer and car company.

 

As it stands now, its a matter of someones opinion if the battery should be replaced or not.  As it stands, when buying an EV and its stated as being capable of going 30 miles per charge, how long should an owner be able to get that distance?   for the first month?  for the entire duration of the battery warranty?   This is the problem, the batteries degrade, from use and abuse but there has to be a target number of miles or KW or whatever makes sense and that needs to be enforced.

 

again, worst case stated in writing and repaired/replaced the moment it no longer is capable.  A person should not be stuck with a car that gets less performance than it was advertised at.

 

everybody would be a lot happier.


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#43 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 10:46 AM

Well OK, but what you ask is not possible unless the battery is oversized or underrated.  In other words, put in a battery that is capable of driving for 40 miles and set the car to go only 20 and as the battery degrades pull more and more capacity out of it so that it will go 20 miles for 8 years, or put in a battery that can go 25 miles but rate it at 12 miles so people don't complain about the battery as the range drops from 25 to 20 to 15 and finally down to 12 when its 8 years old.   The latter of this is what Mini Cooper does with their PHEV, the car can go 25 miles on a charge in the best case scenario but they rate it for 12 miles.  No-one can complain they are not getting 20 miles range.

 

 

 

when buying an EV and its stated as being capable of going 30 miles per charge, how long should an owner be able to get that distance?   for the first month?  for the entire duration of the battery warranty?

 

That means it should start out as 30 miles if the user drives it efficiently they should get 30 miles and as it ages you expect it to go down from there.  Some users can drive better than the "normal" and maybe they can get 40 miles to start and 5 years down the road are down to 30 miles.  Depends on the users.  Also as far as to how quickly it degrades is based on how much you use it.  Someone going to work daily and charging it twice a day to go and come back is going to wear the battery out quicker than someone who is retired and uses the car to go out to eat or grocery shop, etc.

 

Every single device you own that has a battery we all know the battery degrades.  Some worse than others depending on usage.   This car is pretty sophisticated and was miles ahead on its performance and technology (remember it came out in 2012) the only thing would have been better was to water cool the battery though it may not have been feasible with all the stuff they crammed in there.  Remember that it also has a 14 gallon gas tank with a range of over 700 miles on gas/1 charge and is the best performing long range vehicle you can buy to travel the country.  What other car can you get that can go from Boston to Durham, North Carolina on the same tank of gas, or Boston to Mansfield, Ohio on the same?  NONE.  Can't find another with such a fantastic range.

 

If people used the battery where it shined the most and the gas engine otherwise there would be alot less complaints about the battery degradation.  The biggest problem is that when this car came out many many people tried to use it as if the engine didn't exist, I'm even guilty of that on my first 2013 Cmax.  I used to go places and sometimes I would stop on the way back and charge, wait for it to get enough to get home because for some stupid reason I didn't want to ever start the engine if I could avoid it.  Now I just piecemeal the battery out and keep going if I can't make it all the way on battery and use the engine where it shines the best.  At the end of the day I still have a battery and an engine and I still manage about 75mpg and its very very good.  I don't need to be in the over 100mpg club.  Some guy made it close to 500mpg because he was still on the dealer's gas tank after a year and went to the dealer to ask them to ciphon the 3/4 tank of gas he had in the Cmax so he could put it in his Explorer as imagine he didn't want to start the engine in the cmax to burn the old gas and ruin his at the time 438.5mpg.  Yes this is a real story!!

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 09 February 2019 - 10:49 AM.


#44 OFFLINE   Tony_NC

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 12:33 PM

rbort

 

Your points are well taken.  Thanks for understanding mine too.

 

You are correct, the manufacturer will have to oversize the battery to meet their commitment, thats the right thing to do instead of the buyer having to accept something that isnt what they were advertised and promised when making the purchase.

 

Lets just for the shake of argument, remove all driving skills and weather etc.  Lets for example simply consider the battery being used for heating and or air conditioning etc which will of course use the batteries KW.  KW arent too smart, they dont know if they are feeding a drive train, a light bulb, resistive heat etc.

 

IF the manufacture claim is the battery will supply 10kw per a full charge for a period of 8 yrs, that is what they are guaranteeing.  They are not pro-rating it, at least not in their promise.  If the buyer brings the car back and says I am only getting 7KW from a full charge, it should be fixed, no questions asked.  No finger pointing made towards the buyer or his method of consuming the battery charge, providing the user charges the battery with the supplied equipment.   IF the manufacturer feels the battery shouldnt be charged immediately after depleting its charge, the manufacturer NEEDS to implement a timer or some form of safeguards so that the user cant screw things up, in the manufacturers opinion.

 

Again, you are correct, they either need to over build to meet their promise for the duration of the warranty in which the car was purchased under.

 

It makes absolutely no sense that any customer would be happy to have less than they bargained for and this isnt just about the battery, any aspect.

 

it also makes no sense that the manufacture can ignore peoples pleas for assistance and get away with it.    The manufacturer should have known better about battery life, they should have compensated the battery life estimate in the buyers favor.  Why should the buyer be the loser? 

 

please keep in mind,  I am not criticizing anything you or anyone is saying, I am only trying to voice that the problems are not always caused by something a car owner is doing, there are many factors.     I am also suggesting that it is wrong that the customer is now the owner of the problem when after any period of time the battery in this case is not as functional as it was when new. Yes, I know, its a wear item,  but it needs to be stated to the customer in advance when its worn out. 

 

my father always said 'education costs money'    this holds true for the buyer as well as the manufacturer etc etc. 


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#45 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 09:27 AM

Yes, the biggest issue is that these cars are being sold in ways where "normal" driving(and with ZERO warning otherwise) results in seriously reduced capacity in a relatively short period of time.

 

Yes, most laptops and cellphones do even worse jobs of taking care of the battery and they die even faster.  That's not good either.  Though, hopefully those devices cost an order of magnitude less than a car...(and in the old days you could just spend $25 to replace the battery in your phone.  Nowadays, it's more likely to be a $75 plus charge.  still a LOT less than in your car)...

 

Now, from what I've looked up the Volt has temperature management in place so that they aren't really seeing any battery degradation.  So it's obviously possible but yes, more complicated.

 

So, in *MY* opinion the correct way Ford should have sent these cars out is where the "normal" modes(i.e. normal people who don't go looking up battery chemistry information and correlating that with vehicle/powerplant dynamics, and connecting external gauges to view battery temperatures, etc) would be that the car would fire up the ICE or otherwise take action to take care of the battery before it was inducing a "fast aging event"(a term I just made up).  And furthermore,anyone wanting to do something like Engage EV Now and run the car at 75mph(which there is ZERO mention ANYWHERE of being anything other than perfectly fine), a warning would pop up about the fact that you are now creating a fast aging event to your battery.

 

Otherwise it's kinda like selling a 4WD vehicle that is advertised as being able to drive at up to 85mph in 4wd mode and it's normal mode of operation is that 4wd is always on.  There IS a 2WD button, but it defaults to 4WD at every startup.  And everything is great.  But then after a few years, 4WD stops working and you need to replace the transmission because no one ever mentioned that leaving it in 4WD(which is the default normal operation of the vehicle)is constantly wearing something out...


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#46 OFFLINE   GTIguy

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 11:10 AM

If they had a CMAX in manual and added a wagon option, I wouldn't look at anything else.    The CMAX Energi would have been a perfect setup for a wagon.

 

But I also like rowing my own and loved my HCH with a manual.  You gain so much more control over the car with a manual.

 

Uh, I though t the C-Max was a wagon! 



#47 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 11:12 AM

Uhh, sure.  A wagon with the storage capacity of a small sedan... 

I guess it depends on what you consider a "wagon"...  A hatchback I'd agree with.  But I'd generally consider a wagon something with a larger storage area in the back, not smaller...

 

Uh, I though t the C-Max was a wagon! 



#48 OFFLINE   plus 3 golfer

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 11:41 AM

...

 

Now, from what I've looked up the Volt has temperature management in place so that they aren't really seeing any battery degradation.  So it's obviously possible but yes, more complicated.

 

...

Yes, it's possible to "disguise" battery degradation to the consumer by limiting usable battery capacity so that the EV range stays fairly constant for a long time. :smile2:

 

Volt customers are not "seeing" battery degradation because the battery operational capacity is limited to IIRC about 65% of max. battery capacity.  If one looks at INL test data for the Volt (most recenty is MY 2016), the batteries are degrading from maximum capacity despite cooling and limiting usable capacity. A quick check shows that 3 INL test vehicles lost between about 3-5% capacity in 20-30k miles despite the liquid cooling and "oversized" battery.  It's like others have said, all Ford or any manufacturer has to do is increase the size of the battery say for the Energi to about 11 kWh but limit maximum to 7.6 kWh and the consumer will see the range of 20 miles for a long time - likely well past 150,000 miles.  

 

Bottom line: an owner can't change the laws of physics with respect to battery degradation but one can change how they operate a PHEV or the PHEV maker can hold battery capacity in reserve initially to be made available as the battery degrades over time.  So, the consumer "pays" for a fairly constant EV range that lasts a long time by limiting how the car is used or  with a significantly larger battery initially.


Edited by plus 3 golfer, 11 February 2019 - 11:43 AM.


#49 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 11:56 AM

Sure, you need an "oversized" battery if that's what you want to call it since yes, one of the factors of our existing technologies is that using them for the full capacity would be considered a very fast aging event(part of the reason cell phone batteries have such horrid lives).

 

As for the thermal management, I wouldn't be complaining about a 3-5% loss.It's once you start clearing 10% where it starts getting more noticeable, or the ones in some of these C-Maxes that have dropped like 50%, or some of the Leaf(s) where they've lost like 70%....

 

Yes, it's possible to "disguise" battery degradation to the consumer by limiting usable battery capacity so that the EV range stays fairly constant for a long time. :smile2:

 

Volt customers are not "seeing" battery degradation because the battery operational capacity is limited to IIRC about 65% of max. battery capacity.  If one looks at INL test data for the Volt (most recenty is MY 2016), the batteries are degrading from maximum capacity despite cooling and limiting usable capacity. A quick check shows that 3 INL test vehicles lost between about 3-5% capacity in 20-30k miles despite the liquid cooling and "oversized" battery.  It's like others have said, all Ford or any manufacturer has to do is increase the size of the battery say for the Energi to about 11 kWh but limit maximum to 7.6 kWh and the consumer will see the range of 20 miles for a long time - likely well past 150,000 miles.  

 

Bottom line: an owner can't change the laws of physics with respect to battery degradation but one can change how they operate a PHEV or the PHEV maker can hold battery capacity in reserve initially to be made available as the battery degrades over time.  So, the consumer "pays" for a fairly constant EV range that lasts a long time by limiting how the car is used or  with a significantly larger battery initially.



#50 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 04:38 PM

 

Yes, it's possible to "disguise" battery degradation to the consumer by limiting usable battery capacity so that the EV range stays fairly constant for a long time.  :smile2:

 

Volt customers are not "seeing" battery degradation because the battery operational capacity is limited to IIRC about 65% of max. battery capacity.  If one looks at INL test data for the Volt (most recenty is MY 2016), the batteries are degrading from maximum capacity despite cooling and limiting usable capacity. A quick check shows that 3 INL test vehicles lost between about 3-5% capacity in 20-30k miles despite the liquid cooling and "oversized" battery.  It's like others have said, all Ford or any manufacturer has to do is increase the size of the battery say for the Energi to about 11 kWh but limit maximum to 7.6 kWh and the consumer will see the range of 20 miles for a long time - likely well past 150,000 miles.

 

Exactly what I've been saying, I'm glad to see someone has the data to back it up.  The Cmax isn't so bad if you manage the heat of the battery, I mean if it was in a colder environment in the northern states then it probably wouldn't make any difference weather it was liquid cooled or air cooled, but in southern states or people that are excessive charge/discharge/recharge users it makes it more of an issue.

 

Anyway all batteries degrade.  Ford rated this battery at 20 miles.  It really CAN do 37 miles if driven in the best possible manners, but easily over 30 miles if driven somewhat decently when new.  This assumes flat roads, we're not talking up and down Levi mountains here.  Mountains kill range for any car, gas or electric.  Trouble with gas cars is that most people don't even notice.  You can go on 95 north in CT and veer off to 395 north to go towards providence, or stay on 95 all the way.  395 avoids traffic but is more ups and downs, where 95 is more of a coastal road.  You ended up burning more fuel if you take the 395 route than staying on the coast.  For those who watch, they know.  For others, they don't care.  But with a battery indicator showing you how many miles you can go, chances are you're going to know more so than just driving a gas car and never thinking about those things.

 

So if Ford stated 20 miles, even after 5 years I should still be able to do 20 miles.  Even someone who degraded by 20% should still be able to do 20 miles.  New you expect around 5.6kwh usable, with 20% degradation you expect around 4.5kwh usable.  If you get 5 miles per kwh, that's still 22.4 miles or 2.4 miles over the rating.  But in the summer you can get over 6 miles per kwh or 27 miles range even with 20% degradation.  In the winter time all EV cars lose range, it can be as much as 40% loss in range, did you see the recent article about this?  Many good points in there, they even tell you about the lights killing range.  After all, its an electric car and everything draws power.  Here is a link:

 

https://www.cnbc.com...XFG0g-3Nzl3qd9U

 

But Tony, Levi and all...even with all this being said, I do understand your points about the battery.  I happen to be an engineer and for me I knew all this when coming into the picture back in 2013 and I wrote many many posts trying to educate people on how to drive the car, the to do's and to don'ts.  Some people listened, other people laughed me out of the forum said they should be able to do whatever they want to do with the car and battery and Ford should have designed it to protect the battery, hence your point.  But the fact of the matter is that they didn't or couldn't think of all the situations of how people would treat the cars, and here we are today with some folks that are not happy with their end results.  My first Cmax I had for 4 years or 73K miles and it could still put out 5.4kwh so maybe had a 5% loss with the way I treated the car, and I was running around 69mpg lifetime with it.  You can go back in history on this forum and see all my pictures and/or posts, there are many many posts I don't even know how many but I would bet over a 1000.  I spent alot of time trying to help people and educate them about this car, my wife kept telling me I should write a book about it.  I hope that I didn't offend anyone trying to help or point out what is good or bad, but you can't please everybody.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 11 February 2019 - 05:34 PM.


#51 OFFLINE   Tony_NC

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 06:20 AM

-=>Raja.

 

things just dont work out as smooth as they seem they should.   For example, identical twins are born.   One has chronic illness and cancer even though the parents use the same care in their upbringing.  I should mention, the illnesses were first noticed at about the age of 1 and then at 5yrs old, the one ill child had 50% less heart capacity, 50% lung capacity and 50% kidney capacity.  Did I mention he could not hold his food down.  Parents tried moving to a warmer climate.   They tried feeding the child once a day, even though it wanted to eat all the time, like its sibling.  Through all this, the ill child was 50% smaller, had half the stamina, half the teeth etc etc.

 

Same thing happens with things we buy.   You have been fortunate with your battery.  No one will ever know for sure if you got a "good one" or if your high intensity choice of managing your battery is the reason.   You would need at least 10 C Max, same build date, color etc and then manage them your way.  To make things accurate, we would need to have 10 cars like yours assigned to someone who is not on the forums and does not have internet access etc and after 5 yrs, go back and check each car and see how they survived.

 

Yes, I am one of the C Max owners that has low Kw capacity.  In cold weather, i am at 3.0->3.2.  Warm weather I am at a max of 3.4kw   By driving with intention of good distance per charge I can still get 15-16 out of it.    Just imagine the number of miles I could go if I had near full battery capacity, or even just a little less, 

 

 

I almost forgot....  the parents of the above twins are the most capable. The mother is  a world famous OBGYN/Nutritionist and the father is an Oncologist/Scientist with master degrees in organ transplantation and infectious disease.

 

 

 

Back on topic here.... YES, I would buy another C MAX .......  IF there was finally a better battery, a better system in place to protect those of us who may have gotten a less than long lasting battery.  IF there was an easy way to swap the battery out via DIY methods or through non rip off shops.  ALSO IF warranty battery replacement was with a brand new battery not the installation of some one elses refurbished battery, even if RAJA was the previous owner :wink:



#52 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 07:07 AM

Flaky stuff:

-Sonic sensors(they generally always work, they just go off if there's a drop of water or snow, mud, etc on them)

-Door handle sensors(they're working around maybe 55% of the time)(which sounds to be at least a few hundred dollars worth of time to take apart, clean, etc. let alone if the sensors actually need to be replaced)

-Foot operated hatch(haven't seen it work in months at this point)

-Sync/stereo(Once every 3-4 months something randomly stops.  Like volume control and requires fuse pulls)

 

-It needed 3 injectors(one died, 2 more were leaking)

-I had to fix the GPS and other Ford electronics.  Dealer was less than helpful.

 

This weekend's state inspection revealed that the front brakes are on their last bits of life, but still good for a bit.

The rear brakes however:

-needed both rotors replaced(they were starting to flake apart, like occasional chunks missing out of the surfaces)

-pads were marginal to completely gone(though interestingly not making the usual scraping sound)

-At least one of the parking brake cables is semi-seized(i.e. it won't release on it's own)

 

The parking brake cable *looks* like it may only be about $40, but the time estimate is over 2 hours which goes right along with my mechanic who at the time looking at it said that yes, it looks like you have to take off basically every under body pane/exhaust shields, etc between the wheels and center console(at least it looks like they split the cable so he doesn't have to take apart the entire center console as well).  And that's hoping that not every bolt breaks in our ruts laden salt spreading NY state.

 

 

Which led me to increasing my search for a Prius Plug-in(which would be about the only thing I thought I might be able to trade the car in for of a similar value.  Still doesn't hit my high AWD desire) But at least I'd be back to a nice reliable Toyota with things that make sense...

 

And then I made the mistake of looking at trade-in values and realizing yet another reason not to buy a Ford again.  The resale value drops like a rock.  I'd be lucky if I could get $5K out of this thing.  (which isn't much more than what 15+ year old Prius' are still selling for).

 

So...  I'm saying no more Fords for me, though looking at this from the other side, this might not be that bad of a car if I picked it up for $6K..

 

Given my lack of funds and this things lack of value, but still some respect for it's overall capabilities (when it's not annoying me with problems) I'm holding on to it for now.



#53 OFFLINE   ShoulderThingThatGoesUP

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 05:09 AM

I've had the seized parking brake issue too. Mine was on just one side, but it meant new brake pads and of course the labor to fix the issue. Hopefully it was a bad part they put on the 2013s and it won't come up again.










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