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Guest Message by DevFuse

Get you C-MAX Energi Registered in the official Ford Authorized Registry. More here.


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Heat on short trips

heat hvac

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127 replies to this topic

#41 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 07:11 AM

Here's another odd one.  I have the C-Max plugged into our Level 2 (juicebox 40A) and GO Times set for 10:15 (it's 10:02 right now)... I hear the HVAC system blowing hard, haven't been inside the car yet, I do not hear the engine (at least I don't think the engine's running) but when I go behind the car and put my hand over the tailpipe, there is a gentle stream of COLD air coming through.  I figured warm air would indicate the engine was running but I'm mostly curious now why I'd feel cold air coming through the tailpipe... I put my hand right over the tip to make sure I wasn't feeling air coming from something else (e.g. a HVB vent or something).

 

Not entirely sure I follow...  if the air you're feeling is coming out of the tailpipe itself then the ICE must actually be running(or else you've got some SERIOUS problems) Though if you've only set a Go time, and not done any sort of local or remote start then there's no way the ICE should be running either.

 

If you're just feeling air from somewhere NEAR the tailpipe then I'd say you're just getting interior air being blown out of the cabin, either from the battery fan or other normal interior vents(seems like they like to put them near the rear bumper) from the cabin blower fan.









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#42 OFFLINE   ShoulderThingThatGoesUP

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 07:35 AM

So last night on the same trip with similar weather and settings, it was in EV Auto when we started, ICE kicked on pretty quickly. I shifted the car to EV Later since it was obviously going to use the ICE no matter what I did and I didn't want to drain the battery for nothing, and then halfway through shifted it to EV Now. Got 41 MPG instead of the 30 when I left it in EV Auto.

 

Not sure why Ford jacked up the programming on this so much that I get better results pushing mode buttons manually...



#43 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 07:44 AM

So last night on the same trip with similar weather and settings, it was in EV Auto when we started, ICE kicked on pretty quickly. I shifted the car to EV Later since it was obviously going to use the ICE no matter what I did and I didn't want to drain the battery for nothing, and then halfway through shifted it to EV Now. Got 41 MPG instead of the 30 when I left it in EV Auto.

 

Not sure why Ford jacked up the programming on this so much that I get better results pushing mode buttons manually...

 

Just one of the many things that Ford did where it feels like they just kinda said "eh, good enough. Ship it".


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#44 OFFLINE   fotomoto

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 07:59 AM

And now this is where I bow out of this particular discussion.  It was 82F here yesterday......  :stirpot:  :dance:


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#45 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 08:21 AM

Just to be clear the thermostat doesn't start to open until the ICE WT reaches 182*F so there shouldn't be any coolant circulating through the radiator until it opens. :headscratch:

 

Paul



#46 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 08:41 AM

Just to be clear the thermostat doesn't start to open until the ICE WT reaches 182*F so there shouldn't be any coolant circulating through the radiator until it opens. :headscratch:

 

Paul

 

Yeah, and that's not until the temp gauge shows like half way up, right?



#47 OFFLINE   spirilis

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 10:11 AM

On my 2017 this morning, I was in EV Auto mode but the gasoline engine never really turned on until ~10min in when I toyed with the EV button and hit EV later for a brief period... I watched the temp gauge the entire time, it never dipped below where it was before EV later was enabled.  So I'm assuming this is a behavior Ford fixed between 2013 and 2017.

 

I also found it noteworthy but not surprising, that when I went back to EV Auto, the engine kept running for a few minutes; I tried forcing it to EV Now and within a second it said "Engine Started for Performance" or something.  I'm assuming this part of the algorithm says that, if the engine is cold and has been started, it needs to continue to warm up (so blow-by gasses don't condense & rust metal/degrade the oil) right?  I switched back to EV Auto and it continued to run in engine mode (white bargraph only in the Empower graph) for a few minutes before it allowed blue EV mode to occur.


Edited by spirilis, 21 December 2017 - 10:14 AM.


#48 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 10:12 AM

On my 2017 this morning, I was in EV Auto mode but the gasoline engine never really turned on until ~10min in when I toyed with the EV button and hit EV later for a brief period... I watched the temp gauge the entire time, it never dipped below where it was before EV later was enabled.  So I'm assuming this is a behavior Ford fixed between 2013 and 2017.

Dunno, my 2013 works just like you describe.

 

Which makes sense since you wouldn't want:

 

A) Hot coolant dumping into a cold head.

 

and

 

B) suddenly blowing cold air on passengers.


Edited by Levi Smith, 21 December 2017 - 10:14 AM.

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#49 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 11:26 AM

There is a 128*F threshold in Hybrid Mode before it will stay in EV Mode, That could be what's going on.

 

Yeah, and that's not until the temp gauge shows like half way up, right?

I thought it was at the bottom of the white line.  I will use MyView WT gauge to compare ScanGaugeII WT. :smile2:

 

Paul



#50 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 11:32 AM

There is a 128*F threshold in Hybrid Mode before it will stay in EV Mode, That could be what's going on.

 

I thought it was at the bottom of the white line.  I will use MyView WT gauge to compare ScanGaugeII WT. :smile2:

 

Paul

 

in my guesstimations I'd say 128F is close to 1/3 up the gauge which is about where the EV heat will power off.

 

184F is where the thermostat starts to open and that's around the halfway point.

 

Again, those are rough guesstimates based on my past experiences.  But it seems the point at which EV heat will stop drawing power varies based on outside temps, inside temps and how much heat you're asking for.  Sometimes it seems like it's OK with just a little bit over the lower line.  Other times it seems it wants to be like 1/3 of the way up or more.



#51 OFFLINE   ShoulderThingThatGoesUP

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 11:38 AM

And now this is where I bow out of this particular discussion.  It was 82F here yesterday......  :stirpot:  :dance:

 

I grew up in Dallas so I still sometimes forget to wear shoes when I go outside to check the mail in the winter, and find myself expecting the car to be hot when it's sunny even if it's 30F outside.


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#52 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 02:00 PM

I found a Post I did on Hybrid Forum on Smart Gauge temps compared to ScanGaugeII: The first line is 140deg.F the middle is 180-216+deg.F. 206deg. is ideal for best MPG's. :smile2: 

 

Paul



#53 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 07:23 PM

I just came back from FL, nice to be home in the cold.  Its just wrong to be 80 degrees around Christmas.  Seasons is alot better than hot and hotter weather in the south between winter (hot) and summer (hotter yet).

 

I'm hoping for some snow for Christmas   :smile2:

 

I just woke Angel up from her sleep, its been sitting for 3 weeks.  We took the wife's old car as we are going to replace it with a new one within 6 months, figured to put over 3k miles on that rather than on Angel.

 

This is what I did to make sure the 12v battery lasts 3 weeks with no issues, about tripled its size with a 100amp deep cycle battery!

 

Next chance I get I'll try the 2017 electric heat while plugged into a 240v charger and then try to start the engine and see what happens to the coolant.

 

Levi, I can tell you without a doubt that I'm 100% sure that is what my 2013 did, mix the coolant as soon as the engine started.  Maybe it was a programming bug, I don't know, but I knew how that car worked inside out.

 

-=>Raja.

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Edited by rbort, 21 December 2017 - 07:26 PM.


#54 OFFLINE   dougTFC

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 05:31 AM

So Ive read the various posts in the link and it would seem everyone is just as confused as I am. Although I found the link to the ford manual and diagrams helpful.

Unfortunately here (Toronto Ontario Canada), January to March you are done for as it is typically -8 to -12’ish (10f) so heat, and particularly defrost is a must.

I’ll keep playing with settings to see what works best.

A) use my Block heater
B ) use Go times
C) start in EV later so ICE starts immediately

But I’m still confused as to why (when plugged into 240v) when I use remote starter to pre run The engine, when I get into the car it has consumed battery and it may already be down to 75%

Lots of HVAC Quirks with this car.

#55 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 06:09 AM

So Ive read the various posts in the link and it would seem everyone is just as confused as I am. Although I found the link to the ford manual and diagrams helpful.

Unfortunately here (Toronto Ontario Canada), January to March you are done for as it is typically -8 to -12’ish (10f) so heat, and particularly defrost is a must.

I’ll keep playing with settings to see what works best.

A) use my Block heater
B ) use Go times
C) start in EV later so ICE starts immediately

But I’m still confused as to why (when plugged into 240v) when I use remote starter to pre run The engine, when I get into the car it has consumed battery and it may already be down to 75%

Lots of HVAC Quirks with this car.

 

Think of Go Time temps as telling the car "try to get to that temperature, but don't use more power than you can get out of the wall."

 

But even when plugged in to 240V, if you use remote start or a local start, that's more of telling the car "do whatever you want to get what I've asked for(probably sooner than later)".  Even if it doesn't make as much sense to you, the car will decide on it's own to draw more power than it can take from the wall(so it has to come from the battery) and/or fire up the gas engine.  Found that one out the other day.  I mistakenly thought that if it was plugged in and I started it, that it would just heat from wall power.  Nope, gas engine fired right up to help warm the car.

 

At least those sorts of "quirks" make sense if you understand some sort of logic.  I just really dislike the ones where it does things like blow cold air on you when you've asked for 63F and it's 5F outside.


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#56 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 08:00 AM

 I just really dislike the ones where it does things like blow cold air on you when you've asked for 63F and it's 5F outside.

 

That's been fixed in the 2017 model.  In the 2013 model anything like 67 or less IIRC was the same as LO.

 

Like Levi said, if you want wall heat only, you need to use GO times.  Remote start will use battery and engine as needed on top of wall power.  240v alone is NOT sufficient to heat the car when its below freezing outside.  You can see the current draw and the ^ or down arrows on the battery in the older models.  Down arrow with 240v plugged in and heat on means you're using more than the plug power and the battery is filling in.  If you look at the climate, anything over 2.5kwh will come from the battery when using 240v.

 

Once you understand how the car works its not a problem or an annoyance any more.  Its just the way it is.  Understand it, and benefit from it.

 

Your best performance will be:

 

a) use go times,

b) start the engine (use EV later)

c) once the engine is warmed up, swtich back and forth between auto and EV later to use up the battery piecemeal, and keep restarting the engine to churn the antifreeze around once the temp drops to 1/3 and before battery power starts being used for heat.  You can set the left screen to climate and the right screen to engine temperature to monitor these when using heat in the winter.

d) recirculate cabin air to make less work for the heater.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 22 December 2017 - 08:04 AM.


#57 OFFLINE   cr08

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 09:22 AM

The cold air bit is actually good to know. I've been starting to keep my climate set at 65 and recirc on lately and noticed it is blowing cold air immediately. Not a HUGE deal since it is a slow fan speed but might tick it back up to 67 for the time being.



#58 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 10:58 PM

Interesting 2017 changes:

 

a) the EV heat doesn't seem to work if you plug in and power up the car and turn the heat on.  The car draws the power, drains the battery, and heats the coolant, but the air blowing down at your feet is stone cold, no matter what the temp selection is.  This is stupid, anyone else discover this?

 

HOWEVER, if you power up the car on battery power, turn on the heat, and THEN walk out and plug in the car, then it uses shore power to assist the heater and warm air does indeed flow.  Once the cabin is warmed up, only then is the shore power able to keep the heat going without draining the HVB.  This was tested today in 32 degree weather with heat set to 68F.

 

By the way, EV heat is VERY expensive and hard on the battery, it can draw like 20 to 30 amps initially trying to warm the car up.  If you're trying to stay at 2 bars or less, which is about 80 amps, you'll find yourself going over that easily with heat on.  You really have to baby the throttle to keep the load down on the battery while trying to warm up the antifreeze with electric heat.

 

b) Once the antifreeze is warmed up, if you do start the engine the 2017 model does not "flush" the warm antifreeze into the entire system and lose it all to the mix like my 2013 did.  There has been a change somewhere along the way, as Levi's doesn't do that either but my 2013 did this all the time.  Maybe it was one of those updates that I didn't apply, that would reset your lifetime regen miles.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 23 December 2017 - 11:00 PM.


#59 OFFLINE   komondor

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 07:16 AM

So Ive read the various posts in the link and it would seem everyone is just as confused as I am. Although I found the link to the ford manual and diagrams helpful.

Unfortunately here (Toronto Ontario Canada), January to March you are done for as it is typically -8 to -12’ish (10f) so heat, and particularly defrost is a must.

I’ll keep playing with settings to see what works best.

A) use my Block heater
B ) use Go times
C) start in EV later so ICE starts immediately

But I’m still confused as to why (when plugged into 240v) when I use remote starter to pre run The engine, when I get into the car it has consumed battery and it may already be down to 75%

Lots of HVAC Quirks with this car.

Not sure how it is able to run the battery down quicker than it can charge the battery?  I make sure to set the heat on high with defrost when I use remote start at work.  The car is just sitting outside and setting the defrosters on with temp on high always kicks on ICE.  It is a feature I really like since the car is usually too far away for conventional remote starts!



#60 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 24 December 2017 - 07:31 AM

Not sure how it is able to run the battery down quicker than it can charge the battery?

 

Of course it can, I've stated in another post heat is very expensive on the battery, it draws somewhere around 20 to 30 amps when warming up the car.  The 240v charger only puts back in less than 10 amps, so anytime you're using the heat if its over 2 bars you're in the positive draw on the battery which would be helping the plug in power.

 

if its cold outside then its always going to stay over 10 amps draw for the heat, at which point the battery is going to drain down over time.  Not surprised it drained in Toronto down to 75% when the OAT if 10F...

 

-=>Raja.










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