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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Heat on short trips

heat hvac

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127 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   spirilis

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 08:26 AM

I think the simplest answer is : "partially".  It certainly doesn't(or at least I hope not) heat up the radiator and all of the coolant.  But you can see the temperature rise on the coolant temp gauge, so it seems it's probably heating up the head of the engine to some degree.  

 

Not exactly the most efficient for just trying to warm the cabin, but yeah it shouldn't be as bad if the ICE is going to fire up in the cold...

 

Don't get the wrong idea though, even with the electric heat on and the engine started up, it can still take quite some time(if at all) to get the ICE up to it's supposed ideal operating temp.  The most realistic help for this is most likely to go check out ptjones' post above for the grill blockers.  Still amazes me that we have "active shutters" yet they don't seem to be able to block the cold air so that the car actually warms up like it should...  (oh wait, and then the fans run full time under certain conditions like when the ac is on, right?  Like when the defrost might be selected?)

Now I'm very curious ... any idea if the Active Shutters can be toggled on/off via OBD-2 CAN bus?  Probably a question for the FORScan guys...









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#22 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 08:35 AM

Now I'm very curious ... any idea if the Active Shutters can be toggled on/off via OBD-2 CAN bus?  Probably a question for the FORScan guys...

 

Well, as far as I know the shutters themselves do stay shut most of the time they should be.  It seems they just don't seal out enough of the air...



#23 ONLINE   cr08

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 08:41 AM

I think the simplest answer is : "partially".  It certainly doesn't(or at least I hope not) heat up the radiator and all of the coolant.  But you can see the temperature rise on the coolant temp gauge, so it seems it's probably heating up the head of the engine to some degree.  

 

Not exactly the most efficient for just trying to warm the cabin, but yeah it shouldn't be as bad if the ICE is going to fire up in the cold...

 

Don't get the wrong idea though, even with the electric heat on and the engine started up, it can still take quite some time(if at all) to get the ICE up to it's supposed ideal operating temp.  The most realistic help for this is most likely to go check out ptjones' post above for the grill blockers.  Still amazes me that we have "active shutters" yet they don't seem to be able to block the cold air so that the car actually warms up like it should...  (oh wait, and then the fans run full time under certain conditions like when the ac is on, right?  Like when the defrost might be selected?)

 

There is a second coolant temp sensor in the cabin heating loop specifically for the temp gauge and the car to determine how much power to provide to the electric coolant heater. With that said there should be zero reason for it to heat the entire loop when the engine is cold and there is a call for heat.



#24 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 08:47 AM

There is a second coolant temp sensor in the cabin heating loop specifically for the temp gauge and the car to determine how much power to provide to the electric coolant heater. With that said there should be zero reason for it to heat the entire loop when the engine is cold and there is a call for heat.

 

If it's not heating the ICE, I'm surprised I don't see more of a drop on the temp gauge when the ICE fires up.  

 

Although I suppose it could be keeping the ICE coolant separate until it gets up to the same temp...  Which would mean there must be roughly 3 switchable loops once the radiator comes into play...

 

Wish it wasn't such a pain to open up the service manual to get more info(if it says anything useful)...



#25 OFFLINE   spirilis

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 08:50 AM

Anyone have a system diagram of all this?  e.g. on the Focus Electric forum jmueller065 had posted some good docs on the cooling system architecture - https://www.dropbox....System.pdf?dl=0



#26 ONLINE   cr08

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 08:51 AM

I was actually looking around for official documentation. This one has been so handy thus far. Page 104 has more detailed info on the modes and operation for coolant heating and operation:

 

http://www.fordservi...DSM1700_HEV.pdf


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#27 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 09:09 AM

I was actually looking around for official documentation. This one has been so handy thus far. Page 104 has more detailed info on the modes and operation for coolant heating and operation:

 

http://www.fordservi...DSM1700_HEV.pdf

 

Nice find!

 

Although am I missing something or is it not showing a radiator return line?  As near as I can tell they seem to be calling the coolant overflow a "degas bottle" and saying that all of the coolant that goes through the radiator then exits through the overflow to get back to the thermostat?

 

Then again, that almost seems as sensible as the funky windshield washer/brake fluid reservoir filler/bottle setup...



#28 ONLINE   cr08

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 09:30 AM

I believe that is the intended design, yes. On most Ford's Ive seen the 'coolant overflow bottle' is a full part of the coolant loop. There is no traditional radiator cap on the radiator itself and the cap on the degas bottle does have the telltale warning not to open or use caution when the engine is hot. Even my '07 Focus had the same setup. 


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#29 OFFLINE   fotomoto

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 10:23 AM

Question about GO Times-

 

When the car pre-heats the heater coolant to warm the interior during the GO Time preconditioning, does this also pre-warm the engine coolant as well (so the engine is partially "pre-heated"?)

 

Yes, the heater loops are the same.  In fact if you select the temp gauge option in "My View", you can actually see it move up to minimum on the scale even though the ICE has never started up.


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#30 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 10:27 AM

Yes, the heater loops are the same.  In fact if you select the temp gauge option in "My View", you can actually see it move up to minimum on the scale even though the ICE has never started up.

 

Apparently that's not quite true.  See cr08's post above.  It seems the heater core/electric heater/pump is a separate loop if the ICE isn't running and there is a second temp sensor in that loop.

 

Does make me wonder just what that gauge is showing then...  Does it switch from the heater core to the ICE sensor at some point, or just show whichever is higher, or...?



#31 OFFLINE   spirilis

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 10:28 AM

Yes, the heater loops are the same.  In fact if you select the temp gauge option in "My View", you can actually see it move up to minimum on the scale even though the ICE has never started up.

Well as was reported up above, not "exactly"...

 

Page 104 of the aforementioned doc:

ford_phev_hvac_coolant_loop.png


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#32 OFFLINE   fotomoto

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 10:41 AM

Well as was reported up above, not "exactly"...

 

Page 104 of the aforementioned doc:

 

 

Semantics.  I think "bridged" or "shared" system would be more accurate than Ford stating "two functional loops" because they do join (shared radiator).  For instance, both the inverter coolant loop and A/C are truly separate loops (their own radiators, pump, etc).    IMO



#33 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 10:51 AM

Semantics.  I think "bridged" or "shared" system would be more accurate than Ford stating "two functional loops" because they do join (shared radiator).  For instance, both the inverter coolant loop and A/C are truly separate loops (their own radiators, pump, etc).    IMO

Yeah, he asked if it's heating the engine coolant so that the engine is partially pre-heated.  So it depends on how you want to read that.  

 

So, if the ICE hasn't been started it isn't heating the engine or the engine's coolant.  But once you start the engine then the engine would receive some warmed up coolant...

 

I'd say the engine isn't pre-warmed at all if it hasn't been started but it should heat up slightly faster if it's getting some 120F coolant mixed in with it's cold coolant once it starts...



#34 OFFLINE   spirilis

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 10:57 AM

Yeah, he asked if it's heating the engine coolant so that the engine is partially pre-heated.  So it depends on how you want to read that.  

 

So, if the ICE hasn't been started it isn't heating the engine or the engine's coolant.  But once you start the engine then the engine would receive some warmed up coolant...

 

I'd say the engine isn't pre-warmed at all if it hasn't been started but it should heat up slightly faster if it's getting some 120F coolant mixed in with it's cold coolant once it starts...

Well possibly.  Depends on what the firmware does with that diverter valve near the heater core when the engine is first started... and how the thermostat behaves (does the orange line coming from the heater core to TSTAT see the suction from the pump when engine's cold?)



#35 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 10:59 AM

Well possibly.  Depends on what the firmware does with that diverter valve near the heater core when the engine is first started... and how the thermostat behaves (does the orange line coming from the heater core to TSTAT see the suction from the pump when engine's cold?)

 

Agreed.  I mean it says that in combined mode everything is heating and flowing together, but it doesn't specify exactly what happens when you've got a heater core at 120F and the engine at 0F.  It might be better if it does wait until the ICE temp gets up to within 30F or something before it re-combines the loops...



#36 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 08:44 PM

I can tell you from experience with my 2013 Cmax if you plug it in 240 or run the heat on the battery the coolant temperature in the heater core rises to about 62 to 66C.

 

On the temp gage, you will see it rise to about 1/3 max.  The vent will be blowing in warm air.

 

If you cause the engine to start, either due to demanding heat in auto mode instead of EV or using defrost or anything like that, the engine will circulate all the coolant around and "flush" the warm coolant into the radiator or visa versa.  If you look at the temp gage in the car, it instantly drops from 1/3 to nothing when the engine starts.  That's how I interpreted that the coolant is mixing all together with the ice now running.
 

Best thing to do if you want heat is to wait for the temperature of the ICE to come up to 40-45% on the gage (close to 1/2 way) and then turn on the heat.  That way you won't use the battery to assist the engine to warm up the coolant.

 

-=>Raja.



#37 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 06:18 AM

See, that's different than what I see Raja.  I tried it this morning.  Pre-heated, took off in EV Now, heat on and the temp gauge was up to the lower mark.  Switched to EV later, ICE fired up but the temp gauge didn't change. 

 

Generally the only time I see the temp gauge go down is when it just doesn't keep up well.  Like  9F and going 60mph downhill.  More wind/cold everywhere and not enough ability to generate heat.  Or coming from the highway with a fully warmed up ICE and then entering town and switching back to EV Now so the ICE is off and the electric heater won't get that hot.



#38 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 07:02 AM

I'll have to try it again with the 2017 model. but my 2013 definitely did "flush" the warm coolant out when the ice started from cold and the warm air that was coming out was gone (back to cold) until the engine warmed back up.  EV heat would assist the engine at that time as well to warm up the whole lot.

 

-=>Raja.



#39 OFFLINE   spirilis

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 07:04 AM

Here's another odd one.  I have the C-Max plugged into our Level 2 (juicebox 40A) and GO Times set for 10:15 (it's 10:02 right now)... I hear the HVAC system blowing hard, haven't been inside the car yet, I do not hear the engine (at least I don't think the engine's running) but when I go behind the car and put my hand over the tailpipe, there is a gentle stream of COLD air coming through.  I figured warm air would indicate the engine was running but I'm mostly curious now why I'd feel cold air coming through the tailpipe... I put my hand right over the tip to make sure I wasn't feeling air coming from something else (e.g. a HVB vent or something).



#40 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 07:07 AM

Yeah, EV heat on mine stays on until the temp is as warm as it requires it on mine whether the ICE is on or not.  Usually that's in the vicinity of maybe 1/4 up the gauge though it definitely varies.

 

Mine doesn't start blowing cold air at that point either.

 

So, I'd guess one of our cars has a bit of a malfunction.  Either yours was flipping open the solenoid into the ICE coolant as soon as you turned on the ICE(instead of waiting until the ICE temp was up), or mine is actually heating the ICE coolant in as well in EV mode...










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