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Guest Message by DevFuse

Get you C-MAX Energi Registered in the official Ford Authorized Registry. More here.


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Now the Owner of 2 PHEVs: Got the 2018 Pacifica Hybrid Limited!

phev; pacifica hybrid;

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37 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   Jonathan Ezor

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 05:10 PM

Good for you! congrats on the new vehicle.  The pacifica certainly is interesting.  I'd be curious how well the battery cooling works and if Chrysler acts any better than Ford regarding capacity loss during the first  7 years of operation.

 

Currently, the bigger issue is battery *heating*, where the Pacifica's setup causes the engine to run much more frequently than in warmer weather, apparently to keep the hybrid battery from being damaged due to cold. {Jonathan}









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#22 ONLINE   spirilis

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 05:31 PM

Sort've like the C-Max? I notice my C-Max insists on starting the engine when battery is cold due to lack of performance...

I tried using the Value Charge system once to delay the charge til 4AM or so, but it eventually flipped unexpectedly and charged right now anyway (despite Value Charge clearly being active). Seems like a good J1772 timer (e.g. eMotorWerks JuicePlug?) is necessary with these.

#23 OFFLINE   Jonathan Ezor

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 08:19 AM

Sort've like the C-Max? I notice my C-Max insists on starting the engine when battery is cold due to lack of performance...

I tried using the Value Charge system once to delay the charge til 4AM or so, but it eventually flipped unexpectedly and charged right now anyway (despite Value Charge clearly being active). Seems like a good J1772 timer (e.g. eMotorWerks JuicePlug?) is necessary with these.

 

No; I find I can still generally drive my C-MAX on electric-only even in cold weather, as long as I don't turn the cabin heat or defrost. Not so with the Pacifica. {Jonathan}



#24 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 08:34 AM

I find I can still generally drive my C-MAX on electric-only even in cold weather, as long as I don't turn the cabin heat or defrost.

 

Absolutely!  And if you get used to it its not a problem at all.  We are so accustomed to heat in cars its not really that bad once you get your head out of that thought.  I mean what do you do when you're standing outside, there is no heat you just dress for it.

 

If you drive like Johnathan does with no hear or defrost, you can get about 22 miles range in the winter on city streets.  In the summer it could be as much as 37 for me.

 

And if the windows want to fog up, its easy, just crack the front 2 a 1/4 inch.  If you feel you're getting a draft getting you cold, crack the rear two also 1/4 inch, that will lessen the draft.  In this car when you open the rear windows the front window draft becomes less, try it! 

 

With the windows cracked there will be no fog, and on 30 degree days its a cake walk to drive with no heat.

 

-=>Raja.



#25 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 08:39 AM

Absolutely!  And if you get used to it its not a problem at all.  We are so accustomed to heat in cars its not really that bad once you get your head out of that thought.  I mean what do you do when you're standing outside, there is no heat you just dress for it.

 

If you drive like Johnathan does with no hear or defrost, you can get about 22 miles range in the winter on city streets.  In the summer it could be as much as 37 for me.

 

And if the windows want to fog up, its easy, just crack the front 2 a 1/4 inch.  If you feel you're getting a draft getting you cold, crack the rear two also 1/4 inch, that will lessen the draft.  In this car when you open the rear windows the front window draft becomes less, try it! 

 

With the windows cracked there will be no fog, and on 30 degree days its a cake walk to drive with no heat.

 

-=>Raja.

 

If I'm standing outside I can just put my hands in my pockets.  I don't need them for fine motor controls.

 

Though I agree, at freezing temps or above it's not that bad.  Problem is it's been about a month where the temps are more often single digits. 



#26 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 09:13 AM

Levi:

 

If you are sitting inside you can just wear gloves.  There are gloves with fingers you can operate everything with gloves except for the touch screen.

 

Also if you have issues there are battery heated gloves, my friend showed them to me two days ago.  They stay warm for 2 to 3 hours on a charge, you could get one of those while driving.

 

Do not drive with bare hands, I never said that, its not going to work holding a cold steering wheel.

 

I'm on my way out now to run some errands.  Its 30F, full blue sky with the sun.  The skylight shade is open, its going to be hot inside the car in comparison.  :)

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 18 January 2018 - 09:14 AM.


#27 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 09:18 AM

Levi:

 

If you are sitting inside you can just wear gloves.  There are gloves with fingers you can operate everything with gloves except for the touch screen.

 

Also if you have issues there are battery heated gloves, my friend showed them to me two days ago.  They stay warm for 2 to 3 hours on a charge, you could get one of those while driving.

 

Do not drive with bare hands, I never said that, its not going to work holding a cold steering wheel.

 

-=>Raja.

Yeah, I've got thin gloves,  ski gloves, mittens and heated ski gloves.  All are passable for basic driving, mostly unusable for touchscreen and none are as safe as actually having some tactile grip on the steering wheel.

The tight fitting thin jersey gloves with the little rubber nubbies are about as I can get.  But obviously those aren't going to hold up long with cold temps.



#28 OFFLINE   bschwerdt

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 10:44 AM

This is why the CMax should have a heated steering wheel.  Holding a heated steering wheel without gloves (or heat) is fine, even in single digits.  This frees up your fingers to use the touch screen if needed.  And a heated steering wheel draws less power than your radio!

 

 


I'm on my way out now to run some errands.  Its 30F, full blue sky with the sun.  The skylight shade is open, its going to be hot inside the car in comparison.  :)

 

-=>Raja.

 

It's easier when you have balmy conditions like this.  Come to upstate NY.  It has been single digits and overcast for the past week.



#29 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 10:46 AM

This is why the CMax should have a heated steering wheel.  Holding a heated steering wheel without gloves (or heat) is fine, even in single digits.  This frees up your fingers to use the touch screen if needed.  And a heated steering wheel draws less power than your radio!

 

 

 

It's easier when you have balmy conditions like this.  Come to upstate NY.  It has been single digits and overcast for the past week.

 

I agree completely on both points! (:



#30 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 12:22 PM

Been there done that.  I've driven in the cold temps.  First 2 weeks here of January were in the range of +10 to -8F.  My wife and I drove a few times with no heat in single digits or teens at best.  We just dressed in layers, heated seats and made it without heat or defrost.

 

If you turn on the heat (I tested this today), you're adding an average of 20 amps load on the battery.  Its like driving around with 1 extra bar or power.  So if you're at 1 bar with your foot, with heat the draw is 2 bars.  If you're at 2 bars going uphill, its really 3 bars.  That's over 100 amps and stressful on your battery.  If you want to use heat, start the engine to assist.  Electric heat is OK if its not so cold out, but when colder its alot on the battery and if too cold (single digits) then the engine is starting anyways as 30 amps from battery heat is still not enough.

 

So yes, I've survived it all.  My record is -7 to -10F early morning driving around with no heat.  The windshield started to ice on the inside on the bottom and 15 minutes into the trip even in EV Now the ICE started to do something, not sure what, assist the battery I suppose, but the heat wasn't even on.  It warmed up some then shut off, 10 minutes later it did it again for another 2 minutes or so and that was it.  On the way home 3 hours later it was 17F and no engine start and it felt so "easy" compared to -7F.  That, I have to admit, was brutal.  A heated steering wheel would have been great, the gloves were not enough I should have used mittens instead.

 

But due to the lack of heated steering wheel, and that's not going to happen, consider heated gloves for around $70 or less, google them you will see.  Might be a good choice for you guys.  Also, if I need to access the touch screen, I take my glove off for a few seconds, do what I need, and put the glove back on.  Its not a huge issue...

 

At the end of the day, I prefer to use the battery to propel the car forwards, not waste it on heat.  Other minds will vary...  :wink:  Even with that in mind, you can still use shore power to warm up the car.  We went to the movies on Tuesday and the car was plugged in and charging.  During the movie I programmed go times to warm up the car to 72F so when we got out we were able to step into a warm car.  It was 68F inside and by the time we drove 9 miles home the internal temp had dropped about 10 degrees.  Not bad, that was a good benefit of shore power.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 18 January 2018 - 12:28 PM.


#31 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 12:33 PM

How "good" it is for the battery is another question, but I've found there's a big difference as to just what temp you ask for our of the climate control.

 

Defrost is just about a guaranteed ICE starter.

 

Even without defrost, just setting the temp to 72F and it's pretty quick to fire up the ICE if it's cold out.

 

However, I can tell you that I drove in this morning at single digit F temps with the heat set to 65F and cruising along at 55MPH(traffic behind me on a 55MPH road) and the ICE never kicked on.  However, I did have to turn the climate control off at roughly halfway through my 13 mile commute in order to have enough battery left to make it in without burning gas. 

 

 

Electric heat is OK if its not so cold out, but when colder its alot on the battery and if too cold (single digits) then the engine is starting anyways as 30 amps from battery heat is still not enough.

 


 

-=>Raja.



#32 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 01:02 PM

Yes of course.  If you watch the climate screen you will learn something from it.

 

Usually when you turn on the heat, no matter what temp, its going to use 5+ KWH to get the coolant warmed up.

 

Once the coolant starts getting up to temp, the power draw will drop down some.

 

If you lower the climate temperature, the climate power will go to zero until the temp drops to the selected temp and then the kwh will start kicking back in.

 

A faster cabin fan will burn though more kwh as it cools the coolant quicker and requires more battery power to maintain it.

 

A higher cabin temp request will need more power also as the temp difference between inside and outside will be larger.  

 

Recirculate helps as you're using internal air which is not as cold through the heater core, meaning its not dropping in temp as quick.

 

What you're doing works Levi, basically you're managing your battery charge to be used up 100%, any excess left over you're practically diverting that to make cabin heat.  It's a good thing for you and warmer.  For the battery well its more work and deeper depth of discharges/more charge cycles so over time if you did that every day and every day was the same temp condition and you drove another car and didn't do that at all, 2 years down the road you will see a difference in battery capacity between the two cars.

 

At the end of the day its a battery, and we use it like any other thing with a battery.  Eventually it will have to be replaced, the eventually (sooner or later) depends on how you use it.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 18 January 2018 - 01:04 PM.


#33 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 01:31 PM

Yes of course.  If you watch the climate screen you will learn something from it.

 

Usually when you turn on the heat, no matter what temp, its going to use 5+ KWH to get the coolant warmed up.

 

Once the coolant starts getting up to temp, the power draw will drop down some.

 

If you lower the climate temperature, the climate power will go to zero until the temp drops to the selected temp and then the kwh will start kicking back in.

 

A faster cabin fan will burn though more kwh as it cools the coolant quicker and requires more battery power to maintain it.

 

A higher cabin temp request will need more power also as the temp difference between inside and outside will be larger.  

 

Recirculate helps as you're using internal air which is not as cold through the heater core, meaning its not dropping in temp as quick.

 

What you're doing works Levi, basically you're managing your battery charge to be used up 100%, any excess left over you're practically diverting that to make cabin heat.  It's a good thing for you and warmer.  For the battery well its more work and deeper depth of discharges/more charge cycles so over time if you did that every day and every day was the same temp condition and you drove another car and didn't do that at all, 2 years down the road you will see a difference in battery capacity between the two cars.

 

At the end of the day its a battery, and we use it like any other thing with a battery.  Eventually it will have to be replaced, the eventually (sooner or later) depends on how you use it.

 

-=>Raja.

 

Hehe, at single digit temps and at higher speeds there's very little time that the climate isn't drawing 5KW, no matter what temp you set unless the ICE is turned on.  it might drop down to 3KW for a few minutes but then it will be back up to 5 shortly thereafter. 

It would seem that there's just a good difference between asking for 65 and 72F as far as when it decides it's not going to be able to keep up on electric alone.

 

I have enough trouble keeping the windows from fogging up without defrost and/or AC turned on.  Any past experience I've had turning recirc on is an exponential window fogging problem.

 

Not really sure I have more depth of discharge since I'm going to be at 0% either way.  And no more discharge cycles since it's still just one discharge cycle a day.  Fridays I sometimes get in another partial charge before taking my daughter to ballet but again, the heater won't make a difference because whether I have the climate control on or not, there's no way to make the round trip on battery only.(*possibly* I could do it on a perfect day if I never used power to exceed 20mph.  But 30mph didn't make it.)

 

For me, it's just a matter of crap mileage.  If I don't take any long(like 100 mile) trips then during the summer I get a mix of 175+mpge and maybe 35mpge.  The lifetime goes up to almost 60mpge.  This time of year I see a lot of trips that show like 27mpge and my lifetime is at around 53mpge and still going down.

 

 

I'm still really struggling with just what vehicle is the best fit...  With having a real winter this year like we used to I *REALLY* want my AWD vehicle back...  So I'm pretty much thinking the Rav4 hybrid is what I'd go with...  The gas mileage is pretty close to what I get with Max, but I'm not at all pleased with losing the EV portion...  And that's still a good 5+ years before they drop down in price enough for used ones where it's plausible...

 

If they just made a Rav4 plugin with the Volt's EV distance...  And had released it 5+ years ago...  I think that would be about the right fit...  Mostly...  (:

 

Then again, maybe someone will start retro fitting the rear axle to the current Prius Prime from the AWD version they are selling in other parts of the world...



#34 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 01:41 PM

Just briefly:

 

Your statements are contradicting and confusing me..., see quotes:

 

"the ICE never kicked on.  However, I did have to turn the climate control off at roughly halfway through my 13 mile commute in order to have enough battery left to make it in without burning gas."

 

"Not really sure I have more depth of discharge since I'm going to be at 0% either way. "

 

Since the engine never ran, then your would have had some battery left if you didn't use heat for that 13 mile trip.  Logic below:

 

#1  It would go to say that if you drove 13 miles to work without heat, lets just say for example its possible to get there with 7 miles of range left, assuming flat ground.  Battery not 0%.

 

 

#2  Then if you drove to work with heat, and you turned off the heat to make it to work 100% EV, then you have 0 miles left when you get there and 0% battery but was warmer on the way in.

 

#1 will have less depth of discharge than #2.  If you use heat you're going to use more battery, so in general using heat works the battery more - more discharge, more recharge, more wear and less life.

 

At the end of some years, if you drove without heat vs with heat when in electric mode only (ICE operation not accounted for here, use heat when engine is running), then it would be logical to say that the person driving without heat may have 2 more good years of battery performance than a person that was using heat.  It just makes sense.

 

-=>Raja.



#35 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 01:51 PM

Just briefly:

 

Your statements are contradicting and confusing me..., see quotes:

 

"the ICE never kicked on.  However, I did have to turn the climate control off at roughly halfway through my 13 mile commute in order to have enough battery left to make it in without burning gas."

 

"Not really sure I have more depth of discharge since I'm going to be at 0% either way. "

 

Since the engine never ran, then your would have had some battery left if you didn't use heat for that 13 mile trip.  Logic below:

 

#1  It would go to say that if you drove 13 miles to work without heat, lets just say for example its possible to get there with 7 miles of range left, assuming flat ground.  Battery not 0%.

 

 

#2  Then if you drove to work with heat, and you turned off the heat to make it to work 100% EV, then you have 0 miles left when you get there and 0% battery but was warmer on the way in.

 

#1 will have less depth of discharge than #2.  If you use heat you're going to use more battery, so in general using heat works the battery more - more discharge, more recharge, more wear and less life.

 

At the end of some years, if you drove without heat vs with heat when in electric mode only (ICE operation not accounted for here, use heat when engine is running), then it would be logical to say that the person driving without heat may have 2 more good years of battery performance than a person that was using heat.  It just makes sense.

 

-=>Raja.

 

The short of it is that:

 

1) Home is the only place I have to charge.

 

2) There's no way to have enough battery capacity under any reasonable conditions to make it home without starting the ICE.

 

So...  whether I turn on the heat or not, every day I'm still:

 

1) Going to be at 0% battery.

 

2) Have a single charge cycle.

 

So since I can't go below 0% charge, I'm not going to a greater depth of discharge and since I'm only doing one charge a day, I'm not increasing the charge cycles. 

 

I AM burning a lot more gas.

 

Beyond that the only possible detriment that's never really been shown is if the total capacity of the battery is reduced over time from drawing the increased load on the battery.  Though since it sounds like the biggest factor in the increased load is the battery temp, then at these cold temps it seems plausible that it might not be as bad.  Hard to know just what factors went into Ford's programming as far as "well we'll give them the option to do this even though it will kill the battery."



#36 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 02:03 PM

In that case, the logic should be as follows:

 

If you start the engine in the morning, you get heat, and you get worse mpg than the afternoon.

 

If you start the engine in the afternoon, you get better mpg and you don't need as much heat since its warmer out.

 

What do you do?  Start it once a day or twice a day.  I would vote for once a day in the morning.

 

Start the engine, get the car warmed up, and then decide when once the car is hot to switch off the engine and make it the rest of the way in on battery - maybe you can survive with residual heat the rest of the way.  Watch the climate, once it starts drawing kwh turn it off...maybe you get 2 more minutes of heat once the ice is off, maybe more or less depending on OAT.  For the ride home, leave enough battery % to make it home without heat, in your case I would anticipate around 70%.

 

Is it uphill or downhill one way vs another?  That could influence your decision as well.  Also, its going to be warmer on the way home than the morning, so it should be more survivable without heat later in the day than early morning.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 18 January 2018 - 02:04 PM.


#37 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 05:51 AM

In that case, the logic should be as follows:

 

If you start the engine in the morning, you get heat, and you get worse mpg than the afternoon.

 

If you start the engine in the afternoon, you get better mpg and you don't need as much heat since its warmer out.

 

What do you do?  Start it once a day or twice a day.  I would vote for once a day in the morning.

 

Start the engine, get the car warmed up, and then decide when once the car is hot to switch off the engine and make it the rest of the way in on battery - maybe you can survive with residual heat the rest of the way.  Watch the climate, once it starts drawing kwh turn it off...maybe you get 2 more minutes of heat once the ice is off, maybe more or less depending on OAT.  For the ride home, leave enough battery % to make it home without heat, in your case I would anticipate around 70%.

 

Is it uphill or downhill one way vs another?  That could influence your decision as well.  Also, its going to be warmer on the way home than the morning, so it should be more survivable without heat later in the day than early morning.

 

-=>Raja.

 

I've got hills either way, and there are about 3 different ways I can go(5 in the summer) but the net result is definitely down hill in the morning and up in the afternoon. 

Best I can do is generally get to work with 50% charge left. 

It's been a while since there was nice weather and I tried, but as I recall I think semi-realistic numbers were around 2.5KWh for the morning trip and at least 4KWH for the return trip.

 

The shortest route has the most hills so I'm more likely to use EV Now(there's at least one hill where using 2 bars of power means going roughly 20mph which is only OK if no one comes up behind me on the 55mph road).  The trouble is that at the end there's a 10% return hill so if I don't get the charge down below 90% then I'm wasting it.

 

But generally speaking when plausible I aim to do the morning trip on EV Only and avoid the ICE.  In the summer I can make it maybe around 5 miles back before the ICE fires up.  This time of year it's work just to try to make it in the morning without firing up the ICE.

 

For that matter, this time of year with the extra losses, snowy roads, etc I have serious doubts that I could make the return trip even without ever turning on the heater at all.  I watched yesterday and there's a downhill where I can just put it in neutral and coast for quite some time before I need to put the cruise back on and it's noticeably shorter.  Like maybe a half mile or more earlier where I need to re-apply power to keep the speed.  There's just more resistance this time of year.



#38 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 07:23 AM

Ok here are my personal rules for this case.  First of all the battery is more important than gas, it needs to last as long as possible, gas you can replace any day just like in any other car.

 

Since you have to start the engine to get there, then the rules for the battery change.  Do not use the battery to climb any hills.  In fact, start the engine on a flat road so it has some time to warm up to be able to take the load for the hill.  Watch for this in Engage screen.  In the beginning any speed over 35 or any excess load comes from the battery, the engine in only making a small amount of power, but once warm it will take over and make all the load and recharge the battery at slower speeds with excess power.

 

Once you've warmed up the engine, use it to climb every hill, switch to EV later a little bit before the hill and fire up the engine on the way up.  At the top switch back to Auto and continue on the battery.  Use the battery for level and downhill sections, and the engine for all uphill sections that demand over 1.5 bars of power from the battery or are long stretches of uphill.

 

Do the same thing on the way back home, and see how much battery you're left with when you get home if you do this.  

 

The battery range will rise from teens to at least 30 miles per charge, the battery temperature will stay lower (very important in the summer) as hills increase the battery temp faster with constant 2 bars of power output.

 

Its OK if you use some gas, after all you did buy an engine.  Its just best to drain the battery slowly and have it last the entire round trip.  That would be better than using the whole thing on the way in (harder quicker drain more temp rise) and having nothing for the way back.

 

Let me know how this works for you.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 19 January 2018 - 07:25 AM.









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