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Total charge on 2013 C-Max energy


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38 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   Zana Vaughn Wilson

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Posted 02 March 2017 - 04:34 PM

I have been trying to find out what a fully charged of my c-max energy. I can only get 4.3 kWh per charge, and Ford will not tell me what it should be. On my 110v charger it only takes a total of 4:15 min to charge, I thought it would take about 7 hours to charge. Can anyone tell me how to find out the truth ?









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#2 OFFLINE   bdginmo

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Posted 02 March 2017 - 06:32 PM

A like-new and fully charged HVB should provide ~5.4 kwh (give or take) at the moment the car switches to hybrid mode. You'll likely get a couple of tenths more until the ICE actually turns on though.


Edited by bdginmo, 16 March 2017 - 04:40 PM.


#3 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 08:26 AM

Mine in 27 degree weather last night, 5.1 kwh until the HVB reached 0% and 5.4 total drawn before the engine started charging the battery back.  Hybrid at that point was almost empty, about 1/8-3/16th.  3.75 years old and 65630 miles on the car now, still original tires as well  :wink:

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 03 March 2017 - 08:26 AM.

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#4 OFFLINE   Perry Knopp

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 08:54 AM

Mine in 27 degree weather last night, 5.1 kwh until the HVB reached 0% and 5.4 total drawn before the engine started charging the battery back.  Hybrid at that point was almost empty, about 1/8-3/16th.  3.75 years old and 65630 miles on the car now, still original tires as well  :wink:

 

-=>Raja.

 

 Not to hijack this but..........I'm new here. Think you could create a post explaining your charging use? I believe I read where you said you still only use the factory charger using 110. Does driving style play a role here? That is, 12 miles with the heater, radio, lights using 5 kwh is still the same as 18 miles using none of that with 5 kwh but does careful driving get you more kwh? (I know it can get you more miles). 

 

 Anyway I would like to see a post with suggestions how to stretch long term battery life. (there may be one already) 

 

 Thanks



#5 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 09:12 AM

Its already posted by me some time ago.  here you go  :smile2:

 

http://fordcmaxenerg...best-practices/

 

I only use 110v charging at home its plenty fine for me.  I charge the pack up some so I'm not totally dead and within reach to 100% if I need it in a reasonable amount of time.  I said 60% in the post above, but it can be lower no problem.  60% should be the upper limit that you charge it to for storage, no more than that.

 

-=>Raja.


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#6 OFFLINE   Tom_NC_1

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 10:26 AM

Raja makes some very good suggestions in the referenced post and has been able to keep the maintain his HVB capacity. I am a more aggressive with my charging practices using primarily a level 2 charger. I have only experienced a loss of HVB capacity following the hot summer of 2015 and am now down to about 4.2kWh. During that summer the HVB got too hot on several occasions. It is the high temperates that I attribute to the lost capacity. Since learning that lesson I now actively monitor the HVB temperature to prevent overheating. Although 2016 was as hot as 2015 I had no additional capacity losses. Keeping the HVB temperature to 102ºf or lower is the single best piece of advice I can give for preserving the HVB capacity.

 

Here is the link to more details on how I now protect the HVB capacity.

http://fordcmaxenerg...+lost +capacity

 

Tom


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#7 OFFLINE   Perry Knopp

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 10:46 AM

Its already posted by me some time ago.  here you go  :smile2:

 

http://fordcmaxenerg...best-practices/

 

I only use 110v charging at home its plenty fine for me.  I charge the pack up some so I'm not totally dead and within reach to 100% if I need it in a reasonable amount of time.  I said 60% in the post above, but it can be lower no problem.  60% should be the upper limit that you charge it to for storage, no more than that.

 

-=>Raja.

 

 Thank you. If I have questions I will post there.



#8 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 10:50 AM

Tom, see my other post about charging jump to 100%.  Before it get too hot in NC, can you try to do a 100% HVB drain and see what kwh you get out now and what average temp that was done at?

 

-=>Raja.



#9 OFFLINE   Tom_NC_1

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 04:53 PM

Tom, see my other post about charging jump to 100%.  Before it get too hot in NC, can you try to do a 100% HVB drain and see what kwh you get out now and what average temp that was done at?

 

-=>Raja.

 

I am currently checking my capacity and and am still getting a bit over 4kWh per charge. If I drain as much as possible including much of the Hybrid reserve it is about 4.3 to 4.4 kWh. 

 

I rarely look at SOC on the center screen. The ScanGauge SOC display is consistently peaking at 95% when the HVB is full and that has not changed since 2015. A depleted HVB shows about 15% on the ScanGauge although usually it does not get below 18% since there is a bit of downhill just prior to getting home so there is almost always a bit of hybrid charge left in the HVB.

 

The weather has been cooperating with temperatures in the 70s. My regular drive lately has been to start with a full charge drive 30 miles using EV only on the low speed portions of the trip. Use about 2/3 of the available capacity. Charge using the level 1 charger for a 2 to 3 hours. The HVB gets back up >80% and that is used for the drive home. With the daytime temperatures getting to about 75ºf the HVB is reaching 95 to 98ºf. I then used value charge at around 2AM using the level 2 charger to get ready for the next day. The overnight lows getting down to 50ºf or less help cool the HVB so I am not experiencing any problem managing the HVB temperature. On some days I also make an extra morning low speed trip that uses about half the capacity and then charge the HVB up for the afternoon drive. As long as the daytime highs are below 80ºf the HVB temperature stays below 100ºf.

 

I will not have HVB temperature management issues until the overnight lows stay above 65ºf and midday highs reach the mid 80s. When this occurs I will have to start cutting back on the charging and drive more hybrid miles.

 

Tom



#10 OFFLINE   Zana Vaughn Wilson

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 05:26 PM

I live in Florida, today it was 64 and the high was 77, It took 4:15 min to charge and I drove it until the ICE started and it showed 4.3 kW used. I do not fill that is what it should be, it has 36300 miles on it. What should I have the dealer check ? They tested it and said it showed 16 mi. available, I think I should have the check total kW used, not miles. Is this correct ?



#11 OFFLINE   Tom_NC_1

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 09:40 AM


I live in Florida, today it was 64 and the high was 77, It took 4:15 min to charge and I drove it until the ICE started and it showed 4.3 kW used. I do not fill that is what it should be, it has 36300 miles on it. What should I have the dealer check ? They tested it and said it showed 16 mi. available, I think I should have the check total kW used, not miles. Is this correct ?

 

The problem with taking a diminished HVB issue to the dealer is that it will be hard to convince them that anything is wrong. The first thing they will tell you is that there are no diagnostic codes and that some loss of capacity is normal. The diagnostic codes will never be raised for a diminished capacity issue. The dealer will also not be willing to provide any information on how much diminished capacity is ok. A long warrantee on the HVB sounds good but is not very comforting when Ford is not willing to define the parameters to their customers. 

 

We users would view a 1kWh of lost capacity  as an 18% loss [ (1/5.5) *100 ]. Ford may look at the size of the pack as a reference and conclude that the loss is 13% [ (1/7.6) *100 ]. 

 

I did take the C-Max to the dealer and documented my lost capacity so that their system recorded HVB issue. Figured this would help if the lost capacity became more pronounced. Since I have not had any additional lost capacity I have decided not to press the issue with Ford at this time.

 

Tom



#12 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 10:22 AM

Almost seems like you want to keep doing what you were doing Tom and destroy the battery entirely so you can get one replaced by warranty.  Then on the next one do all the right moves to keep it as good as long as possible.

 

-=>Raja.



#13 OFFLINE   Tom_NC_1

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 03:10 PM

Almost seems like you want to keep doing what you were doing Tom and destroy the battery entirely so you can get one replaced by warranty.  Then on the next one do all the right moves to keep it as good as long as possible.

 

-=>Raja.

 

I am definitely not trying to destroy the HVB. Actually I believe that HVB degrading capacity can be prevented by managing the battery temperature. Last summer I proved to myself that keeping the HVB below 102ºf resulted in no additional capacity loss. I will still charge as often as I can unless the heat builds up. It would come as no surprise to me that cars in cooler climates will have fewer HVB capacity issues that those of us in hotter areas. 

 

Tom



#14 OFFLINE   stevedebi

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 08:42 PM

I am definitely not trying to destroy the HVB. Actually I believe that HVB degrading capacity can be prevented by managing the battery temperature. Last summer I proved to myself that keeping the HVB below 102ºf resulted in no additional capacity loss. I will still charge as often as I can unless the heat builds up. It would come as no surprise to me that cars in cooler climates will have fewer HVB capacity issues that those of us in hotter areas. 

 

Tom

Tom,

What you say makes sense, but to me Ford should have designed the car to protect the battery, regardless of the climate. The car knows the temperature and basic atmospherics from the sensor, after all.

 

After 2.5 years, I was getting 5.3KW on my 2014, in SoCal.


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#15 OFFLINE   Zana Vaughn Wilson

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 04:10 PM

I took my c-max energy back to dealer to have the door latch recall done. I told them about my low kWh charge, the service manager said a engineer was coming in on Thur. and he would tell about the problem. The manager said it seemed like quite a loss for only 36000 miles, and would let me know what the enginner said about it.



#16 OFFLINE   Zana Vaughn Wilson

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 03:53 PM

Finally got my answer from Ford engineering, they said that the kWh does not matter it it the range. The range is from 0-19 miles, I told them it takes kWh to get the range and the range can change for many reasons, they said that is what they go by. I said so if you only get 5 miles per charge, this is within the specs, they said yes. I told them so I paid 4000.00 extra for nothing and less cargo space, he said that is what Ford told him. I asked what if I was hit in the rear in an accident would that be a fire problem, he did not answer. So I guess we Energy owners need to file a Law Suite the way the Leaf owners did. What are we to do ?



#17 OFFLINE   jdbob

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 09:33 PM

No doubt the word has gotten around to the Ford employees that you never acknowledge that a mistake was made by Ford regarding protecting battery life. It's what big businesses do.



#18 OFFLINE   cwstnsko

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 06:17 AM

The general rule of "Do not bite the hand that feeds you" applies to employees, unless they have a desire to no longer be employed.  If/when Ford officially acknowledges that their design choices have resulted in some customers experiencing degradation greater than hoped for, the employees may then be able to have more meaningful discussions about the situation. 

 

Since I only expect to keep the car for the duration of the 3-year lease, and my goal is to minimize the money I spend on fuel during the lease, I charge liberally to maximize the EV miles  I tend to leave the house at 100% charge in the morning, and leave work at 100% charge in the afternoon, with an occasional charge at a public charger, most commonly on weekend days. I do use go-times and value charge profiles both at home and at work, to avoid charging at the most harmful times while still ensuring that I leave with a pre-conditioned car and a full battery.  I use the heat shamelessly in the winter, but set to a low temperature setting (16.5C) and I use the A/C shamelessly during the summer. For my daily commute, I only need to run the engine when temps are below -10C, or if running errands on the way home during the winter. In the summer, I am generally able to run 100% EV including errands, unless I take a road trip out of town.  I've had the car a bit less than 2 years, I'm only at about 32,000 kms.  When the car was new, I generally got about 5.5-5.6 kWh before the engine would start, and now I get about 5.1-5.2 if the battery is reasonably warm (it may get better during the summer), so it appears I have lost a bit of capacity, but not so much as to have any meaningful impact on my cost of commuting. 

 

Based on my personal observations and the reports on here from around the country, My guess that Ford made a calculated choice when deciding how much to spend on battery cooling capability and how aggressively to set the car's programming in regard to protecting the battery.  I'm guessing that they knew that degradation would be more pronounced in places like AZ, TX and FL and with certain driving/charging behaviors, but they made a business decision to go ahead with a design that struck a cost/performance balance in spite of that risk. As soon as reports of degradation started coming in, they almost certainly formulated a risk management/mitigation plan designed to best protect them from any financial damage.  This would likely include denial and avoiding publishing any hard number related to capacity or degradation rate.  I think this is just the kind of things that publicly held companies do to protect their quarterly earnings etc.

 

Personally, if I lived in a hot climate, I would never own an EV with currently available battery chemistry that was either air-cooled or passively cooled.  Even some of the EVs with liquid cooled batteries would have to be carefully matched to my usage plans to ensure that the cooling system would not be rendered inactive at critical times. As an example, my Focus Electric would only be a good choice in AZ,  if I had 240V charging at home and at work that I could stay plugged into the entire time I was parked to allow the liquid cooling to prevent the battery from becoming overheated. 



#19 OFFLINE   Zana Vaughn Wilson

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 07:45 AM

Is there any way or anyone found out if there is a class action lawsuit being filed against Ford about our lost energy battery kWh on the car ?



#20 OFFLINE   bdginmo

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 05:20 PM

Finally got my answer from Ford engineering, they said that the kWh does not matter it it the range. The range is from 0-19 miles, I told them it takes kWh to get the range and the range can change for many reasons, they said that is what they go by. I said so if you only get 5 miles per charge, this is within the specs, they said yes. I told them so I paid 4000.00 extra for nothing and less cargo space, he said that is what Ford told him. I asked what if I was hit in the rear in an accident would that be a fire problem, he did not answer. So I guess we Energy owners need to file a Law Suite the way the Leaf owners did. What are we to do ?

 

That doesn't make any sense at all. My range varies from 10-30 miles depending on countless variables and my HVB is still near like-new condition. If you lose 20% of your kwh capacity then you'll definitely lose 20% of your range. But since range is so variable to begin with it's hard to make conclusions from it alone. On the flip side kwh typically stays in a narrow range. For me its 4.8-5.5 the moment SoC reads 0% with the low end usually occurring because its very cold and/or I didn't discharge the HVB in one trip. For that reason it is much easier to draw conclusions. I will say that some degradation is expected. My personal and completely subjective opinion is that a fair loss (for both Ford and the owner) would be maybe 10% every 50,000 miles (maybe less if you EV a lot). You're already at a 20% loss at 36,000 miles which seems excessive to me.

 

And with all of that said you should still be able to get 19 miles of range with a 20% loss of capacity. You'll have to be more careful with your driving habits, but you can easily get 4.5 mi/kwh in the warm season if you're careful. If you're hard on the accelerator and brakes it'll be a fraction of that. These cars are designed for drivers who are more concerned with mpgs than 0-60 times. I think that's lost on some people though (not saying you're among them). Just me 2 cents...


Edited by bdginmo, 16 March 2017 - 05:21 PM.









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