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Climate control doesn't do under 64F when heating?


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#1 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 05:20 AM

So I was playing with the climate control this morning and I'm remembering some of the things I thought I noticed last winter...  I'll try to simplify:

 

-Outside temp was about 29F.

 

-I turned the climate control to Auto and the minimum set temp of 60F.  

 

At this point the fans turn on very noticeably blowing outside air, making the car colder.  The climate power shows none used.

 

 

-Turn it up to 61F.  No change

 

-62F - No change.

 

-63F - No Change.

 

 

-64F...  Oh, hello look at me I'm like a functioning climate control system!

-Fans turn off, climate power jumps to 5+KW and in maybe 30 seconds I start getting some gently warm air blowing.

-In about 5 minutes, the power usage drops to around 2.5KW and then periodically switches between around 1-3KW and works nicely for the rest of the trip.

 

 

When I first started I did try turning the temp below 64F again and it did the same stupid thing of shutting off the power and increasing fan speed with frigid air.

 

Is there some part in the manual I missed where it allows you to set the temp down to 60F but doing so only works accurately with the cooling side of things?









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#2 ONLINE   rbort

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 05:41 AM

Yeah I've seen the same thing.  Also of note in the summer time if you have the AC on and you turn the temp up too much maybe to 73 or 74 the heat kicks in along with the AC.

 

Its like a narrower working range for the heat and the AC.

 

-=>Raja.



#3 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 05:47 AM

Yeah I've seen the same thing.  Also of note in the summer time if you have the AC on and you turn the temp up too much maybe to 73 or 74 the heat kicks in along with the AC.

 

Its like a narrower working range for the heat and the AC.

 

-=>Raja.

I could see it if you're saying it's 85F out, but you had the AC down to 68F and the interior of the car is down to 70F and then you turn it up to 74F then it would interpret that as you asking to raise the temp up to 74 because the interior temp is significantly colder.

 

But if it's only 30F outside and the interior is maybe 45F and you turn the climate control on to 60F then that should still definitely be a call for heat...



#4 OFFLINE   cwstnsko

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 05:47 AM

I experienced the same thing last year, but I experienced it in Celsius, I think the lowest setting I can go to that the heater behaves rationally is 16.5 which is closer to 62 F


Edited by cwstnsko, 11 October 2016 - 05:48 AM.


#5 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 05:54 AM

I experienced the same thing last year, but I experienced it in Celsius, I think the lowest setting I can go to that the heater behaves rationally is 16.5 which is closer to 62 F

OK, must be it's a "feature" then.

 

I didn't use the heat a lot last year, but in trying to minimize energy usage last year when I did, I was really confused when the car was 20F, I turn the heat on to 60F and get even colder with 20F air being blown on me at speed...

 

I'm contemplating using a bit more heat this year since I can't make it round trip without starting the ICE and it might be better to run the ICE a little longer to try to get it as close to operating temp as possible instead of only having it start up 5 miles from home and barely clearing the bottom temp gauge marker which I think isn't much over 100F.

 

 

Oh, I was also refreshed on the ICE/Defrost mode.  I had thought you could just select floor/defrost mode without starting the ICE.  I guess that's *possibly* true...  

Even just switching to that mode throws up the "Engine Enabled due to defrost setting." message.  However, at least at the time, the ICE didn't actually start...  Not sure if there's a way to see some sort of set point to know what might actually trigger the ICE to start in that mode...



#6 OFFLINE   stolenmoment

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 09:48 AM

This morning, I decided to try the cabin heat, since my normal commute uses up about half of the HVB, and it turned on the ICE before I was even out of the driveway.  This was with the windshield and floor vents on, but not the actual defroster (separate button from the climate controls).

 

That was a real surprise.  It also seems to suck lots of juice to produce only somewhat warm air.  Personally, I'd rather get warm air than get fried, but I had to run the climate temp down and up before I realized that the air was getting warmed at all.

 

Does anybody capture the air warmed by the battery?



#7 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 10:02 AM

This morning, I decided to try the cabin heat, since my normal commute uses up about half of the HVB, and it turned on the ICE before I was even out of the driveway.  This was with the windshield and floor vents on, but not the actual defroster (separate button from the climate controls).

 

That was a real surprise.  It also seems to suck lots of juice to produce only somewhat warm air.  Personally, I'd rather get warm air than get fried, but I had to run the climate temp down and up before I realized that the air was getting warmed at all.

 

Does anybody capture the air warmed by the battery?

Yeah, that's what I was referring to: the button for floor/windshield.  If it aims at the windshield it's considered defrost.  That's what I tried this morning and got the "Engine Enabled due to defrost setting" message.

 

I'm not completely sure as to how quickly you're referring to warm air...  The electric heater just heats at least a portion of the engine coolant, so it still takes a bit of time using a lot of energy to get heat out.  I guess I haven't played with it enough to know just how warm it gets in electric only mode.  But I'd think if you had run it long enough for the coolant to be up to temp and then you cranked the heat up to max it ought to blow pretty warm...

Again, I haven't played with it that much, but it did drop energy usage considerably(1-3KW) after about 5 minutes at 29F outside and 64F inside going about 45mph.

 

I'm not thinking there's a lot of heat to capture from the battery.  I mean the battery is in the cabin so you should get some ambient heat from it, but that's about it.  Are there any vehicles out there at all that capture heat from the battery?



#8 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 10:08 AM

Sounds like heat pumps are about the most efficient heaters in use at the moment.

 

I found one link to a mention of Tesla having a patent on getting some heat from the drivetrain motors/electronics, but another page on Tesla's blog just mentions a 400V resistance heater...

 

http://www.hybridcar...heating-system/

https://www.tesla.co...ng-hot-and-cold



#9 OFFLINE   cwstnsko

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 10:10 AM

...

Even just switching to that mode throws up the "Engine Enabled due to defrost setting." message.  However, at least at the time, the ICE didn't actually start...  Not sure if there's a way to see some sort of set point to know what might actually trigger the ICE to start in that mode...

 

I think the Engine Enabled message triggers when just the defrost is selected by itself.  If you select defrost 1st, then add in the floor, you might see that message, but it's not likely the ICE will actually start.  If you select the floor first then add in the defrost, I don't think you even see the message.

 

As the weather gets colder, if your goal is to have better control over when the ICE starts, it becomes advantageous to use EV NOW rather than AUTO, especially if you are using the climate control.  EV NOW allows the climate control to be a bit more aggressive with the use of battery without starting the ICE. 

 

This is also a great time of year to learn about go-times and pre-conditioning, if you haven't already.  The best was to limit how much battery is used by climate control is to start off with a warm car that was heated up using wall power rather than the battery.  It may not seem like you can get much heat using the 120V EVSE, but it does help quite a bit, even if it won't heat the car up to the target temp.



#10 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 10:14 AM

I had it in EV Mode, no climate control on at all and pressed the floor/windshield button.  "Engine Enabled due to defrost setting" popped up.  Though the engine didn't actually start.  But I switched it to plain auto within about a minute to try harder to avoid the engine starting.

 

I use the Go Times, but I still need to put together my 240V box, confirm I've got 2 different legs of power for it to work on and get the L2 charger.  

On 120V at the temps when I would use it (below freezing) it doesn't really ever get the car "warm" it just makes it a bit "less cold". (:



#11 OFFLINE   cwstnsko

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 10:21 AM

Conventional heat pumps are great in the fall, spring, and in mild climates.  When it drops below freezing, the conventional heat pumps fall short, and electrical resistance heating come back in to play. 

 

The new Prius Prime is supposed to have a new Vapor Injection heat pump that should stay useful down to almost 0 F.  This will expand the range of conditions that would benefit from a heat pump, but still leaves a segment of the country needing to use resistance heat for a portion of the winter.  I'm not sure if the Prime has a back-up resistance heater like the Leaf does. If it doesn't, then it will probably have a feature like the Volt's ERDTT to run the engine to produce heat for the climate control.

 

Tesla's (and the new Bolt) don't bother with heat pumps because they have a lot more battery to work with.



#12 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 10:25 AM

Hmm, wonder if I have vapor injection in my Panasonic heat pumps at home that we had installed a few years ago...  They work down to about 0F(though with a lot less heat ouput).  Then we fall back to the houses original electric baseboards.



#13 OFFLINE   cwstnsko

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 10:41 AM

I had it in EV Mode, no climate control on at all and pressed the floor/windshield button.  "Engine Enabled due to defrost setting" popped up.  Though the engine didn't actually start.  But I switched it to plain auto within about a minute to try harder to avoid the engine starting.

 

I use the Go Times, but I still need to put together my 240V box, confirm I've got 2 different legs of power for it to work on and get the L2 charger.  

On 120V at the temps when I would use it (below freezing) it doesn't really ever get the car "warm" it just makes it a bit "less cold". (:

 

My car doesn't have a floor/windshield button.  They are 2 separate buttons, and the sequence that I select them in makes a difference. Windshield 1st, ICE wants to start.  Floor 1st, not so much. :-)

 

EV NOW causes my car starts the car less, AUTO causes it to start more

 

"a bit less cold"  makes a big difference in how much battery is used later to get the car warmed up a bit!

 

Headed into cooler weather the L2 240V EVSE makes a HUGE difference.  I have L2 at work and I walk out every day to a very warm car with clear windows and most, if not all, of the snow melted off thanks to go-times abd pre-conditioning :-D



#14 ONLINE   rbort

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 10:45 AM

Using EV now will lower the threshold of the engine starting.

Watch the climate meter to tell if the heat is on or not when turning the temp values.

Speeding up the blower fan will cool the coolant faster and demand much more power from the heater as seen in the climate meter.

Defrost will start the engine because the user is demanding to clear the window and its important so you can see.  But you can use air direction changes with the buttons without affecting the engine.

 

At some point when its too cold the engine will start anyways, even in EV now.  Below 32F plan on the engine, above that you may get away with just electric heat.

 

The more you draw heat out of the system, the less the engine will warm up.  Its possible to demand heat when its cold outside, for example 15F and you're on a country road and never have the engine stay at 1/2 on the coolant gage.  This is because the engine is cycling on and off.  If you get on the highway then it will maintain 1/2 on the coolant.  In this case is where grill blocks might be useful, but not if you get on the highway and start climbing a mountain.

 

Some things to think about.

 

These is no heat from the battery, nothing to feel in cold weather.  If you charge the car it might make the car a little less cold, but that's about it.  While driving forget about battery heat (from you draining it hard for example) warming the cabin any.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 11 October 2016 - 10:47 AM.


#15 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 10:50 AM

My car doesn't have a floor/windshield button.  They are 2 separate buttons, and the sequence that I select them in makes a difference. Windshield 1st, ICE wants to start.  Floor 1st, not so much. :-)

 

EV NOW causes my car starts the car less, AUTO causes it to start more

 

"a bit less cold"  makes a big difference in how much battery is used later to get the car warmed up a bit!

 

Headed into cooler weather the L2 240V EVSE makes a HUGE difference.  I have L2 at work and I walk out every day to a very warm car with clear windows and most, if not all, of the snow melted off thanks to go-times abd pre-conditioning :-D

You don't have this climate control setup on your car?

Ford-C-Max-Energi-2013-7-of-35.jpg



#16 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 10:56 AM

Well, I take that back....

 

I had thought that 2nd button from the right was floor/windshield but looking at this picture I questioned it a bit more just what it's supposed to mean...  I guess I figured if there's a picture of a person on the button there would be air aimed at the person as well...  If it was just defrost then it would just have the defrost logo, right?

 

Apparently not...  Page 106 of the owner's manual says that apparently that button is just plain old defrost...

http://www.fordservi...s/13cmhom1e.pdf

 

OK, so apparently I need to press the "floor" button to get air to the floor and windshield...

 

Wow, I don't know how I could consider those 2 buttons more misleading.  Consider myself schooled!



#17 OFFLINE   cwstnsko

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 11:10 AM

Hmm, wonder if I have vapor injection in my Panasonic heat pumps at home that we had installed a few years ago...  They work down to about 0F(though with a lot less heat ouput).  Then we fall back to the houses original electric baseboards.

 

It's very possible, a quick search in the internet shows that the research on Vapor Injection became widely know in about 2010, and it started appearing in commercial products by 2012.  I would suspect many of the newer style ductless units may be using the technology.

 

 

You are right that the graphics on the button do not fully clarify its function.  The misunderstanding of that button completely explains the difference between your and my experiences :-)



#18 ONLINE   rbort

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 11:15 AM

What is so confusing about the buttons? One arrow points to the floor one arrow points to your face and the third is the universal icon for defrost. I guess now you know what that icon for defrost looks like :-)

Note that if you do decide to start the engine so you can get heat out of it, you have to watch the engine temperature gage and wait until he gets to almost half before you can turn on the climate heat without using the battery, otherwise the system will use the battery resistance heat until the engine is warmed up.

That's why it's important to watch the engine temperature in the winter when you're trying to demand heat, Free heat that is...

-=>Raja.

#19 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 11:16 AM

You are right that the graphics on the button do not fully clarify its function.  The misunderstanding of that button completely explains the difference between your and my experiences :-)

 

Well, I know everyone sees everything with their own eyes, but I'd say not only do the graphics not clarify the function but they are the opposite of what I'd expect....

 

If I see a button with an arrow to the feet I would think that means air to the feet...(cause if we were putting air on the windshield as well then there would be the windshield icon on there too...)

 

If i see a button with the same person but also with a defrost icon, I'd assume that means we're defrosting AND giving some air to the person(because why would there be a graphic for a person if said person is not getting the air...)



#20 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 11 October 2016 - 11:19 AM

What is so confusing about the buttons? One arrow points to the floor one arrow points to your face and the third is the universal icon for defrost. I guess now you know what that icon for defrost looks like :-)

-=>Raja.

Like I said, I know what the defrost icon looks like...  And it's NOT present on one of the buttons that puts air on the windshield...

 

And why is there a person on the defrost button if you're not blowing any air at the person?










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