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Prius Prime: $20k after incentives! Energi killer?


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49 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   fotomoto

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 07:20 AM

Watched video and Hybrid 0-60 was 11 sec. vs 7.9 sec for CMAX Energi and the big thing is you can't carry big boxes, because of low ceiling.  BTW I 'm getting the same FE numbers with my Hybrid and about 700 mile normal range. :smile2:

 

Ahh OK but that still doesn't make the Prime vs Energi an apples to oranges comparison; not by a long shot.  It just means the CMax gets a check in the acceleration box on the tally sheet but there are lots of other boxes.   :reading:

 

New 4gen pri owners are reporting upper 70 to lower 80 mpg tanks; no aids.  Game on.  :shift:


Edited by fotomoto, 05 October 2016 - 09:50 AM.

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#22 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 07:55 AM

Exactly how I feel, for example the Cmax I can get 30 miles on a charge of about 5.4kwh, if the Prius has 7kwh available to me I should be able to get about 40 miles per charge even though its rated for 25 miles.

 

In the Cmax they said originally 43mpg, well I can go on a trip and easily get 48 or higher.  So whatever the Prius is rated for, you can get better if you're a good efficient driver, and worse if you're not.  I can see now all the inefficient drivers with the gas brake gas brake and high acceleration rates, before when I was driving a non feedback car I didn't even think about that.  You learn alot from the Cmax.

 

-=>Raja.


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#23 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 09:59 AM

Ahh OK but that still doesn't make the Prime vs Energi an apples to oranges comparison; not by a long shot.  It just means the CMax gets a check in the acceleration box on the tally sheet but there are lots of other boxes.   :reading:

 

New 4gen pri owners are reporting upper 70 to lower 80 mpg tanks; no aids.  Game on.  :shift:

I missed the Plugin part to start with, but still the Prime is like a sedan with hatchback and CMAX is like a good handling minivan.  :smile2: :shift:  

 

Paul



#24 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 10:13 AM

I missed the Plugin part to start with, but still the Prime is like a sedan with hatchback and CMAX is like a good handling minivan.  :smile2: :shift:  

 

Paul

 

HA!  Now THAT is a HUGE stretch!  The Prime IS a hatchback...  And I'm pretty sure it has about the same cargo room as my Energi which would be the competitor.

 

If you want to compare your C-Max HYBRID to a Prius V then you're closer to being on equal footing...

 

Trust me, I have a Toyota Sienna as well.  The Sienna is just as fast and handles similarly to the C-Max.  And there is just about NO comparison between the C-Max and a real minivan as far as space.  Anywhere you want to look.  We've got 2 big bucket seats with ottomans in the second row AND a porta-potty in between them!  Then...  A WHOLE 'nother row of seats before you get to the cargo area!  But yes, the C-Max does get twice the mileage of our AWD Sienna... (:



#25 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 10:39 AM

HA!  Now THAT is a HUGE stretch!  The Prime IS a hatchback...  And I'm pretty sure it has about the same cargo room as my Energi which would be the competitor.

 

If you want to compare your C-Max HYBRID to a Prius V then you're closer to being on equal footing...

 

Trust me, I have a Toyota Sienna as well.  The Sienna is just as fast and handles similarly to the C-Max.  And there is just about NO comparison between the C-Max and a real minivan as far as space.  Anywhere you want to look.  We've got 2 big bucket seats with ottomans in the second row AND a porta-potty in between them!  Then...  A WHOLE 'nother row of seats before you get to the cargo area!  But yes, the C-Max does get twice the mileage of our AWD Sienna... (:

You could put a lot bigger box  in a CMAX NRG than a Prime, because of the much higher roof line was my point. CMAX NRG has more "useful storage space" even if the square footage is the same. :smile2:

 

Paul


Edited by ptjones, 05 October 2016 - 10:39 AM.


#26 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 11:05 AM

You could put a lot bigger box  in a CMAX NRG than a Prime, because of the much higher roof line was my point. CMAX NRG has more "useful storage space" even if the square footage is the same. :smile2:

 

Paul

 

I wouldn't make that bet...  Sure, the roof line is higher, but so is the height of the battery shelf...  You've only got 23" of height in the Energi.:

http://cmaxchat.com/?p=154

 

I can't find exact dimensions for the Prime, but I'd say it's going to be pretty darn close to that number...  I'm finding measurements of 23-26" for the older model Prius'. The battery in the Prius Prime does make the load floor a touch higher, but nothing like in the Energi.  So depending on the body the height is likely pretty close.  My guess is that when it comes to larger sizes and positioning of rear seats that either car might be able to hold something the other couldn't but they're generally going to be pretty close...



#27 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 11:15 AM

Sure enough, there's a heater element in the battery that will keep that battery at 32F while plugged in for up to 3 days. or Otherwise depending on what you want.

 

Looks like there's a few new bits for remote climate as well like controlling whether it's just heat/cool or front /rear defrost as well as estimated cabin temp.

 

Neat, apparently(as near as I can tell) it also keeps tabs on where you slow down/road incline/etc and uses that data to next time tell you when is best to slow down and it will give extra regen at those locations as it learns...

 

Seems like there's got to be some sort of air flow with a fan or other pressure through that battery with how they talk about the optimized cooling paths and a filter on the air inlet...

 

https://priuschat.co...t-PriusChat.pdf



#28 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 01:04 PM

I wouldn't make that bet...  Sure, the roof line is higher, but so is the height of the battery shelf...  You've only got 23" of height in the Energi.:

http://cmaxchat.com/?p=154

 

I can't find exact dimensions for the Prime, but I'd say it's going to be pretty darn close to that number...  I'm finding measurements of 23-26" for the older model Prius'. The battery in the Prius Prime does make the load floor a touch higher, but nothing like in the Energi.  So depending on the body the height is likely pretty close.  My guess is that when it comes to larger sizes and positioning of rear seats that either car might be able to hold something the other couldn't but they're generally going to be pretty close...

Looking at the Video one could estimate that there is only about 12" of clearance at the back of the trunk. The Prime is a little longer and that is where it makes up the cubic footage lost to the low ceiling. Also in the Video they said the battery pack is 4-5 " higher than the height of the rear seats folded down. :( 

 

Paul 



#29 OFFLINE   fotomoto

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 05:26 AM

Looking at the Video one could estimate that there is only about 12" of clearance at the back of the trunk. The Prime is a little longer and that is where it makes up the cubic footage lost to the low ceiling. Also in the Video they said the battery pack is 4-5 " higher than the height of the rear seats folded down. :(

 

Paul 

 

Prime, similar to the CMax hybrid, will have a more conventional and usable opening than the Energi.  And yes just like the Energi it will have a step down when the rear seats are folded down.

 

 

Attached File  Prime hatch space.jpg   157.35KB   3 downloads


Edited by fotomoto, 06 October 2016 - 05:27 AM.


#30 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 06 October 2016 - 11:29 AM

Prime, similar to the CMax hybrid, will have a more conventional and usable opening than the Energi.  And yes just like the Energi it will have a step down when the rear seats are folded down.

 

 

attachicon.gifPrime hatch space.jpg

Would have been nice if you would have taken a picture of your NRG Hatchback to compare side by side. :smile2: Actually a side view of both would make it obvious the difference.

 

Paul



#31 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 08 October 2016 - 05:58 AM

I think you're mis-matching things a bit here...

 

Yes, in HYBRID mode the Prius is definitely slower than the Energi(and I assume the Hybrid Fords as well).  The Fords have a stupid(in a fun way) amount of acceleration.

 

As for carrying big boxes you're comparing it to your hybrid, not the Energi model.  Depends on what you're carrying, but pretty sure my old Prius had more cargo space than my Energi.  And the Prime looks like a similar amount of room.

 

As for mileage, if you're getting that with your Ford then you're a hyper miler so with a Prius you would be getting 70-100+mpg in a Prius...

I went on Fuelly to check what kind of mpg 2016 Prius was getting and the average FE was 54.8 mpg, 55.5 mpg I have been averaging for the last Ten Fill ups.  I only found one 2016 Prius owner that was getting 73 mpg and from his notes he is obviously Hypermiling.  There were others that were getting erroneous FE caused from not filling out the form right. :(  There were others getting low 40's FE,  so it all comes down to how you drive. :smile2:

 

Paul



#32 OFFLINE   fotomoto

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Posted 08 October 2016 - 10:10 AM

I went on Fuelly to check what kind of mpg 2016 Prius was getting and the average FE was 54.8 mpg, 55.5 mpg I have been averaging for the last Ten Fill ups.  

 

 

Yes, the new 4gen Prius hybrid is averaging nearly 10mpg higher than the 2015.  Although you get outstanding FE   :happy feet: , you probably know you're an outlier in the statistical average.  Fuelly reports the CMax at 39mpg but that includes numerous Energi owners who, because of fuelly's outdated system. can't exclude electricity use and this leads to incorrect, super high MPG readings.  Take the Energi's out of the mix and I'd suspect a more real world figure for the CMax hybrid is 37ish (WAG).   "OK" gas economy doesn't really affect me too much as I do most of my driving on electric and buy 2-3 tanks/year but Ford has a big challenge ahead on their next hybrid models if they want to counter 55 mpg.  

 

This takes us back to the Prime which gets even better MPG in gas mode than the hybrid.  As to why, not much is certain at the point but it's believed it's because it can use the larger HV battery for more regen kwh's than the smaller hybrid model battery and a larger battery can flow more power thus stay in electric mode longer, to higher speeds, etc before activating the ICE.



#33 OFFLINE   stevedebi

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Posted 08 October 2016 - 11:07 AM

OK, I'll weigh in here, which is ironic, because I want to point out the weight. If I understand it correctly, the Prime is less than 3450 lbs. The Energi is 3800. It is still built more lightly than the C-Max, and it won't ride as well. They were going for pure MPG, while Ford was using an existing (and popular) model from Europe. To me, these cars ARE apples to oranges.

 

The weight greatly influences MPG and range as well. But it also negatively influences ride and comfort. You get what you want. I would never compare them for MPG, but I would expect the C-Max to be better in comfort and long range driving.

 

Still wish the C-Max turned tighter than a tank (which isn't true, if you know tanks - but it SEEMS like it is true).


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#34 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 08 October 2016 - 01:04 PM

Not for nothin but cant tanks turn in place by moving one tread forward and one backwards?

-=>Raja.
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#35 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 09 October 2016 - 02:36 AM

I went on Fuelly to check what kind of mpg 2016 Prius was getting and the average FE was 54.8 mpg, 55.5 mpg I have been averaging for the last Ten Fill ups.  I only found one 2016 Prius owner that was getting 73 mpg and from his notes he is obviously Hypermiling.  There were others that were getting erroneous FE caused from not filling out the form right. :(  There were others getting low 40's FE,  so it all comes down to how you drive. :smile2:

 

Paul

 

Yup. Exactly, it comes down to how you drive.  So you can clear 50 now in the C-Max and you could clear 70 in a Prius.



#36 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 09 October 2016 - 02:45 AM

OK, I'll weigh in here, which is ironic, because I want to point out the weight. If I understand it correctly, the Prime is less than 3450 lbs. The Energi is 3800. It is still built more lightly than the C-Max, and it won't ride as well. They were going for pure MPG, while Ford was using an existing (and popular) model from Europe. To me, these cars ARE apples to oranges.

 

The weight greatly influences MPG and range as well. But it also negatively influences ride and comfort. You get what you want. I would never compare them for MPG, but I would expect the C-Max to be better in comfort and long range driving.

 

Still wish the C-Max turned tighter than a tank (which isn't true, if you know tanks - but it SEEMS like it is true).

 

I'm not convinced on this one either.  Of course it comes down to personal opinion, but I definitely don't find the C-Max to handle or ride better than my old Prius.  Both are just OK.  And if anything the weight of the C-Max makes it feel a bit more boat-like which I think is about how it's turning radius is as well!  I just took our full minivan Sienna out into a parking lot the other day and realized that it turns shorter than the C-Max!

 

I'm even reconsidering the interior which everyone says is better than a Prius as well.  I'll give you that they used softer and seemingly nicer materials inside the C-Max, but I find the heavier door/thud is just a different feeling and really just takes a bit more effort.  And it seems to take it's toll on the interior as my door handle ever so slightly flexes when I pull the door shut.  The Prius never did that with it's harder surfaces. 

This one goes for our Sienna as well- I always thought the leather(esque) seats looked nicer and I guess might be easier to clean, but I kinda think I might prefer the cloth...  I'm finding that leather stuff doesn't breathe at all during the summer.  I keep looking down to confirm I didn't accidentally turn on the seat heaters.  Also, I've found that the kids' car seats are leaving what look like may be permanent disfigurement to the material.

 

Anyway, as far as ride, it comes down to what you want and weight doesn't necessarily mean better or worse.  We've had plenty of lightweight well riding vehicles in the past.  The fact is that the C-Max is a heavy vehicle.  I'd say pretty much at the tops of the weight class...



#37 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 09 October 2016 - 06:34 AM

It sounds like it come down to what you are use too. I have driven My Daughter's 2011 Prius on trips and I really can't think of anything about it I like better than my CMAX, and again I have driven the 2016 Prius (My  daughter doesn't like the exterior design of it either)  for a short drive test and although it is improve some over the 2011 Prius it is still not as good as my CMAX. IMO  :smile2:

 

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#38 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 09 October 2016 - 06:46 AM

I have to agree with Paul, I've driven my brother's Prius in CA and I like my Cmax alot better, but that Prius is a hybrid no battery and 2009 model.  I'd like to test drive the new Prime to see how that compares, driver feedback is important to me, I like that cool factor.  My wife hates the body shape of the Prime, so she is already complaining she wouldn't like that car for her (or me), still set on her Mini Cooper that she wants.  I'm waiting for a plug in Mini to replace her BMW, but I'll look at the Prime and Bolt while waiting, I didn't like the Chevy Volt, drove it during EV car week, that car is just not doing it for me.

 

-=>Raja.



#39 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 09 October 2016 - 07:16 AM

Yes, the new 4gen Prius hybrid is averaging nearly 10mpg higher than the 2015.  Although you get outstanding FE   :happy feet: , you probably know you're an outlier in the statistical average.  Fuelly reports the CMax at 39mpg but that includes numerous Energi owners who, because of fuelly's outdated system. can't exclude electricity use and this leads to incorrect, super high MPG readings.  Take the Energi's out of the mix and I'd suspect a more real world figure for the CMax hybrid is 37ish (WAG).   "OK" gas economy doesn't really affect me too much as I do most of my driving on electric and buy 2-3 tanks/year but Ford has a big challenge ahead on their next hybrid models if they want to counter 55 mpg.  

 

This takes us back to the Prime which gets even better MPG in gas mode than the hybrid.  As to why, not much is certain at the point but it's believed it's because it can use the larger HV battery for more regen kwh's than the smaller hybrid model battery and a larger battery can flow more power thus stay in electric mode longer, to higher speeds, etc before activating the ICE.

I also checked Fuelly to get Hybrids only which you can do by using Sub Model Filter for SE and SEL Hybrid ( Cmax Average also includes Euro CMAX's gas and Diesel powered) The real average is +40mpg. :smile2:  Energi average is around 56.5 mpg.

 

Paul



#40 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 09 October 2016 - 07:29 AM

Energi MPG depends on EV to ICE ratio.  I net 69mpg average over the last 3 years.  Some people net higher but then the battery wears out quicker and that higher MPG number cannot be maintained as easily.

 

-=>Raja.










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