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Guest Message by DevFuse

Get you C-MAX Energi Registered in the official Ford Authorized Registry. More here.


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Prius Prime: $20k after incentives! Energi killer?


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49 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   fotomoto

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 04:51 AM

WOW!  Pricing in title is for base model with fed and California incentives.  25 mile EV, 124mpg(e), 54 mpg.

 

http://www.autoblog....drive-1-review/


Edited by fotomoto, 03 October 2016 - 04:52 AM.

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#2 OFFLINE   MaxLB

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 05:49 AM

My Energi (302A) with incentives was $20K, and a LOT better looking, faster, roomier, etc.


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#3 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 07:45 AM

I think that is like comparing apples and oranges. Not much of a comparison IMO. :headscratch: The only thing I liked about the 2016 Prius was the heads up display which was marginal.IMO :smile2:

Paul



#4 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 10:19 AM

I think there's a good chance I'll pick up a used Prime Advanced in another 5-10 years.

 

But yeah, I'll miss the 5th seat(not that I've ever used it) and the little bit more room inside(though the Prime may actually have a bit more cargo room than the C-Max Energi. Not sure)

 

Not sure. I still prefer the Volt's range.  Though if the Prime ends up with another 5 real world miles than the Energi(And that's highly iffy in my use) then I might be able to use it without climate control to work and back...

 

Still, I feel more confident in a Toyota than the Ford.  Max hasn't been too bad so far...  Pano roof shade switch not installed, gps not knowing where it is, a couple sync issues...  Though it seems the suspension is about due for replacement...  It's not horrible, but it definitely feels a bit too loose/bouncy over bumps which has always been my experience in the past when struts and or springs need replacement...

 

Now if only Toyota would bring over the AWD option for the Prius, double the range and do it in a Prius V...  Now that would be just about what I'm looking for...



#5 OFFLINE   Tom_NC_1

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 10:52 AM

I didn't see any information on how the Prime  cools the battery. Hopefully they have thought out the cooling better than Ford did with the C-Max.

 

Tom



#6 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 11:00 AM

I didn't see any information on how the Prime  cools the battery. Hopefully they have thought out the cooling better than Ford did with the C-Max.

 

Tom

 

I don't think so.  From the sounds of this, it sounds questionable that there's even a fan.  But that seems hard to believe since there's been a fan(that only runs when it needs to) in the Prius for the battery since at least 2001 if not back to the first ones in 97'...

 

http://www.csmonitor...l-electric-mode



#7 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 12:06 PM

Well, that last link Tom says no fan and ambient air cooling only.  So no liquid cooling either...

 

But the car looks interesting, I wouldn't mind trying one for a test drive just to see what its all about.

 

-=>Raja.



#8 OFFLINE   jdbob

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Posted 03 October 2016 - 12:07 PM

Alex on Autos has a review of the Prime.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=a5Vx279YhAI



#9 OFFLINE   fotomoto

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 05:41 AM

I think that is like comparing apples and oranges. 

 

How's that?

 

I didn't see any information on how the Prime  cools the battery. 

 

Yes, it's an air-cooled design just like all previous Prius including the first gen Prius plug-in.  It does differ in one area:  it will somehow (no specifics yet) warm the battery while plugged in during cold weather.   Combine that with a first ever gas injection heat pump for cabin warming that is said to be much more efficient than the old school heated coil element and it should not lose too much range in cold weather.   But that's of little use to me.  HAH!   :smile2:


Edited by fotomoto, 04 October 2016 - 05:41 AM.


#10 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 06:15 AM

How's that?

 

 

Yes, it's an air-cooled design just like all previous Prius including the first gen Prius plug-in.  It does differ in one area:  it will somehow (no specifics yet) warm the battery while plugged in during cold weather.   Combine that with a first ever gas injection heat pump for cabin warming that is said to be much more efficient than the old school heated coil element and it should not lose too much range in cold weather.   But that's of little use to me.  HAH!   :smile2:

It is annoying not to have any power in EV with Prius, I'm about 50% EV in CMAX  by comparison. :smile2: 

 

Paul 



#11 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 06:20 AM

Yes, it's an air-cooled design just like all previous Prius including the first gen Prius plug-in.  It does differ in one area:  it will somehow (no specifics yet) warm the battery while plugged in during cold weather.   Combine that with a first ever gas injection heat pump for cabin warming that is said to be much more efficient than the old school heated coil element and it should not lose too much range in cold weather.   But that's of little use to me.  HAH!   :smile2:

 

I'm having a hard time finding much info on this, but what little I can find almost has me wondering the wording is just a bit confusing...  One article mentioned "battery powered warming" which was as close as I could come to battery heating so I've yet to actually find anything that says the battery itself would be warmed other than through normal cabin heat like the Energi.

 

And the "gas" injection they talk about sounds like it's not actually gasoline but a new tactic in the heat pump using some of the coolant "gas"/vapor in part of the cycle to make the heat pump more efficient.  Definitely any heat pump should be more effective than standard resistive heating, especially if they isolate it to just the cabin whereas it seems like our Energi's are resistive heating part of the ICE coolant loop which is not only a lot more mass that doesn't need to be heated but also out in the nice cold exterior of the car to a degree more than the cabin...



#12 OFFLINE   fotomoto

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 08:03 AM

It is annoying not to have any power in EV with Prius, I'm about 50% EV in CMAX  by comparison. 

 

We're talking Prius PRIME here not the Prius hybrid.  The Prime has about the same EV horsepower as our Energi's.  IOW, it's a direct and closest competitor to the Energi in terms of performance, battery size and range, etc.   They even have about the same 0-60 time in EV only mode (about 14-15 secs.; skip to the 9:30min mark on the video jdbob linked).



#13 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 11:47 AM

We're talking Prius PRIME here not the Prius hybrid.  The Prime has about the same EV horsepower as our Energi's.  IOW, it's a direct and closest competitor to the Energi in terms of performance, battery size and range, etc.   They even have about the same 0-60 time in EV only mode (about 14-15 secs.; skip to the 9:30min mark on the video jdbob linked).

Watched video and Hybrid 0-60 was 11 sec. vs 7.9 sec for CMAX Energi and the big thing is you can't carry big boxes, because of low ceiling.  BTW I 'm getting the same FE numbers with my Hybrid and about 700 mile normal range. :smile2:

 

Paul



#14 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 12:12 PM

Watched video and Hybrid 0-60 was 11 sec. vs 7.9 sec for CMAX Energi and the big thing is you can't carry big boxes, because of low ceiling.  BTW I 'm getting the same FE numbers with my Hybrid and about 700 mile normal range. :smile2:

 

Paul

 

I think you're mis-matching things a bit here...

 

Yes, in HYBRID mode the Prius is definitely slower than the Energi(and I assume the Hybrid Fords as well).  The Fords have a stupid(in a fun way) amount of acceleration.

 

As for carrying big boxes you're comparing it to your hybrid, not the Energi model.  Depends on what you're carrying, but pretty sure my old Prius had more cargo space than my Energi.  And the Prime looks like a similar amount of room.

 

As for mileage, if you're getting that with your Ford then you're a hyper miler so with a Prius you would be getting 70-100+mpg in a Prius...



#15 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 02:24 PM

I think you're mis-matching things a bit here...

 

Yes, in HYBRID mode the Prius is definitely slower than the Energi(and I assume the Hybrid Fords as well).  The Fords have a stupid(in a fun way) amount of acceleration.

 

As for carrying big boxes you're comparing it to your hybrid, not the Energi model.  Depends on what you're carrying, but pretty sure my old Prius had more cargo space than my Energi.  And the Prime looks like a similar amount of room.

 

As for mileage, if you're getting that with your Ford then you're a hyper miler so with a Prius you would be getting 70-100+mpg in a Prius...

Grill Covers
"The Fords have a stupid(in a fun way) amount of acceleration."   Another way of looking at this is FORD got it the away it should be and Toyota Prius is anemic. :smile2:
The Prius is a purpose built Hybrid where as the CMAX isn't, so it has room for improvement. I invented Grill Covers  to improve the efficiency of the ICE and also aerodynamics of the car. Also added wheel covers, 50 psi to tires, Premium gas, added Oil pan and Block Heaters to shorten warm up time.  The combination of these improvements is worth about 6 mpg.  My Fuelly average for the last ten fill ups is over 55 mpg.  Hypermiling definitely helps but not that much,   BTW my last tank I got 915 miles/66.1mpg/ 13.8gal, now that's Hypermiling.  :smile2:
92616NRec

 

 
Paul 

Edited by ptjones, 04 October 2016 - 02:29 PM.

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#16 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 02:53 PM

Yeah it depends on what you want. The acceleration is fun but totally unnecessary and my personal preference would be to have something like the ICE in the Prius that would have less power but heat up quicker and get better mileage.

Same difference with mpg. Sure you've done some car modifications and you drive for efficiency and are getting considerably more than the car is rated for. Do those mods on a Prius and drive similarly and you'll be up in that 70+mpg range that the Prius hyper milers get.

#17 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 04:31 PM

Those mods have already been done on the Prius and many have complained with the poor accelation of the Prius on CMAX Hybrid forum. One of the main reasons many members left their Prius for CMAX😊

Paul

#18 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 04 October 2016 - 04:47 PM

Burning premium fuel vs regular is counter productive.  Premium costs 40 cents a gallon more than regular here, $2.45 vs $2.05.  

 

So if you net 60mpg with regular vs 66mpg with premium (just an assumption I know its alot less gain as 6mpg is all your gain) then to travel 915 miles you will need 13.84 gallons of premium vs 15.22 gallons of regular.  

 

13.84 x $2.45 = $33.91

15.22 x $2.05 = $31.20

 

A loss of $2.71 and that's assuming that you gain 6mpg which apparently by your own admission you get 6 for all not just the fuel change.

 

Best to stick with regular fuel unless its just an accomplishment to get the high score of 915 miles per tank for you.

 

Same really goes for the block heaters, they cost money to install, and they also cost money to operate, none of which will ever yield gains in savings, maybe gains in mpg numbers, but not money savings.

 

I run 50psi in my tires, that's no cost to do and worth something, maybe 1 to 2mpg gain.  I also bought gas pods which add maybe another 2mpg to the car's performance, they cost me about $60, it will take a while to save that money back (about 25,000 miles).

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 04 October 2016 - 04:47 PM.


#19 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 06:22 AM

I didn't say using Premium was cost effective at $2/gal for Reg, it was closer at $4/ gal.  For me it's worth $2 extra to get the extra mpg/range. :smile2:  On the other hand Block/Oil Pan Heaters do improve MPG's in Hybrid Mode which I have seen over and over again(Electricity is suppose to be cheaper than Gas :smile2: ).  If you don't have a block heater you can add one like I did, but it is a major job so I don't recommend it.  I do recommend adding two oil pan heaters, one on the oil pan and one on the back of the block.  This should eliminate the problem the Lady in Canada with her Fusion Hybrid getting white junk on her oil cap from condensation caused from short trips. This should improve MPG's by 3-4mpg on short trips.  For me Gas Pods didn't make a noticeable improvement, less than .5mpg. :shift:

 

Paul


Edited by ptjones, 05 October 2016 - 06:23 AM.


#20 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 05 October 2016 - 07:00 AM

Gas pods location makes a difference, if you still have them try to move them forward and back on the roof, they don't work best is any spot.

 

If you didn't get the car with the block heater, its not worth adding it.  Only certain cars from cold climates came with block heaters.  But you also have to think, in climate like in this area, using the block heater to warm the engine may not be fruitful, just a waste of electricity, since if I'm going on a trip I may drive about 10 miles EV before I start the engine, I'm thinking when I'm going to FL in December...So trying to either warm the cabin with preheat or warm the engine with a block heater, by the time I get to the highway when I'm going to start the engine 1/2 hour later, whatever is warmed up is gone already from the 20 degree temps outside.  I think Larry in the Fusion Forum investigated the fruitfulness of that idea, and said that at most you need to use the block heater for 2 hours otherwise you're just wasting electricity and it needs to be before you leave.  Anyway I didn't run any numbers on that, for me its not worth it for that extra 3mpg as all my short trips are EV only.

 

-=>Raja.










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