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Low Battery capacity thread (4.5 kwh or lower via myfordmobile)


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118 replies to this topic

#81 OFFLINE   GS Dave

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 07:49 AM

Thought I would update...last report was Oct 2017, now I am seeing about 3.7 on a full charge at almost 88K miles.  pretty sad.  









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#82 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 23 April 2018 - 03:30 PM

Thought I would update...last report was Oct 2017, now I am seeing about 3.7 on a full charge at almost 88K miles.  pretty sad.  

You look like you charge a lot with only 28 fillups in 88k miles.  I went uphill this morning keeping MADMAX just under 35 mph for 1.5 mi. with 193k miles in my Hybrid.  Fully charged I could have gotten 2 miles. :smile2: 

 

Paul



#83 OFFLINE   GS Dave

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Posted 24 April 2018 - 06:44 AM

HAHAHA...that fuelly is so old.  I guess I should pull it from my signature.  The car does get charged almost every night.



#84 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 24 April 2018 - 07:15 AM

Why did you stop using it? It's good info. :smile2:

 

Paul



#85 OFFLINE   GS Dave

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Posted 24 April 2018 - 11:01 AM

Just got lazy and lost interest.



#86 OFFLINE   SyNRG

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Posted 25 April 2018 - 12:13 PM

It has been awhile since I've posted in the forums, just wanted to provide an update.

 

C-Max notes = 2013 (build date of June 2013), currently has about 33.5k miles and has been charging via Level 2 since January of this year.

 

  • When I was still charging on Level 1, saw Raja's thread on how to maintain the HVB, but didn't take serious notice until I saw this thread.  In which my kw had already dropped to 4.7.
  • So between the end of 2016 until summer 2017, began following (not 100% but about 80%) Raja's outline on preserving the HVB and his various charging techniques, although on several occasions, I've caught my wife plugging in the car immediately after she had been driving on the freeway.  The capacity now sat around 4.4 - 4.5.
  • From summer of 2017 to current, I get a constant 4.3.  Every now and then will get 4.4, and once got 4.5.  Lowest I've seen has been 4.0 - 4.2 (i had gone 3 weeks w/o checking tire pressure thus it was low, usually keep my tires inflated to around 45/46 psi).
  • So currently still getting around 4.3kw, my range still getting 19 - 22 AER (when the car was new was getting 23 - 26 AER, with a best of 27 once).  And my routes hasn't changed since then, but we've had few road trips.

 

I also wanted to point out to those "new" to PHEVs and BEVs, do extensive research on the thermal management system ((TMS) how the batteries are cooled).  Vehicles like Teslas, Bolt, Volvo XC90 T8, Focus EV, uses liquid cooled technology for the TMS, thus constant charging and heat will be less of an issue in regards to degradation.  In the C-Max and Fusion Energi, it's air cooled, thus heat is a huge factor in battery degradation.  Think of it like your pc/laptop/tablet/cellphone, constant recharging or leaving it plugged in causes serious degradation to the battery and eventually it may not hold a charge (don't think this will ever happen to our cars). 



#87 OFFLINE   volvofixer

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 11:11 AM

after charging overnight my 2013 c-max the battery monitor says 11 miles range. ive been light footed about driving . but, im only getting 5 miles before the ev battery indicator drops to nothing. i only have 71k miles .  is there anything i can do about this?



#88 OFFLINE   bsheaffer

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 06:00 AM

You will go to the dealer, and they will put the one battery guy on it. You'll say words like 'capacity' and 'kilowatt hours' and they will nod. They will tell you the range estimate is just an estimate and depends how you drive. They'll also mention temperature affects range and some loss is expected.

The battery guy will say there are no error codes from the battery. You'll use those words again, and they'll nod a bit more. Maybe they'll call Ford corporate, who will tell you that the range estimate is just an estimate and depends how you drive. They'll also mention temperature affects range and some loss is expected. They'll also mention that there are no error codes from the battery.

At some point, the Service Manager will talk to you. You'll say those words, and he'll nod. He'll mention that there's a Ford engineer who's coming by the dealership next week. He's kind of their 'Winston Wolf' ... he's "the guy". The manager will mention this to him and see what he says.

You'll call back next week, but the manager will be busy. You'll reach him eventually and he'll tell you that the range estimate is just an estimate and depends how you drive. They'll also mention temperature affects range and some loss is expected. He probably won't mention the lack of error codes from the battery.

Maybe... just maybe... if the stars align, the gods smile, and the heavens allow... maybe you will be the 3rd person to get a battery replaced via warranty. It doesn't hurt to try.

Meanwhile, the rest of us are crossing our fingers on the class action lawsuit ... I for one am looking forward to the 68 cents I expect to get from it.

</sarcasm>

Seriously:

Take readings of the battery capacity (how many kilowatt hours from 100% to when the hybrid kicks in - these forums have more deets, but drive it to the hybrid switch-over, pull over, turn off the car, check the left-hand dashboard screen for kwhr). Maybe do this a couple times. Range means nothing. I can get 20 miles out of my reduced capacity battery... or I can get 5. Know your kwhr capacity.

Take it to the dealership and have them check over the car/battery. Stick to your guns and document everything. The battery is warrantied for capacity loss... but Ford does not define what "normal" is or over how much time "normal" might happen. "Some loss" means "all loss" means "normal". Use the kilowatt hour number in all conversations NOT range and don't let them bog down on range. If your 5 mile range is in fact low kwhrs ... maybe they'll listen.

Otherwise, keep driving the car (or sell it for a tiny amount). Don't charge it in the sun, and don't charge it in weather over 80 degrees F. Maybe don't charge it more than once a day. Enjoy what you can from it.

I prolly sound a bit bitter ... I am, but just a bit. I bought the Ford marketing and believed Ford's _stated_ intentions with the car. My bad. Also, in 5+ years and 65k miles on my 2013, I have spent $2,606.52 total. On everything. That's all gas, service, tires, car washes... everything except electricy (I never broke that out). I enjoy driving it, pushing what capacity I do have, choosing slower routes, and even sitting in traffic. It's a good car marred by some ... questionable... engineering choices. I still enjoy it. And now that I know, I don't charge it in the sun. Or in weather over 80 degrees F. Or more than ... twice a day.


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#89 OFFLINE   ShoulderThingThatGoesUP

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Posted 13 June 2018 - 03:46 AM

I ran down the HVB completely on a drive yesterday and 5.2 kWh was the MFM readout - so that's another way to gauge your remaining capacity, check the kWh used on a drive where you go from "full" to "empty" in one shot.

 

(Not sure if I just got lucky on battery longevity on my 2013, if the previous owner failed to plug it in ever, or if a cooler climate helps tremendously. Also it doesn't seem to ever have been driven more than 10,000 miles in a year.)



#90 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 07:08 AM

I went on a trip to Austin, TX and it got up to 101*F and my HVB temp got upto 114*F with SOC between 40 -50%.  Using A/C raised HVB temp 2-4*F, interesting. :headscratch:

 

Paul



#91 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 07:56 AM

Like I said some years back, use AC for your comfort only it doesn't seem to do a whole lot to cool the battery as AC adds load to the battery which then basically becomes a wash with the cooler air trying to cool the battery.  I also proved that using AC didn't help my battery get cooler while driving recently -- actually got hotter like Paul's by 2-4F also if I recall correctly now that I have the SG to see the effect.  

 

The only time AC helps is if you are plugged in, charging, and AC on blasting inside the car then that cools the battery down as plug in power is being used to run the AC not the battery and the charge rate on the battery becomes very low, down to 1 amp average.  I did this with 120v charging in the garage in shade, not sure the effect with 240v charging that will make more heat than 120v both in the charging circuit as well as the battery.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 14 June 2018 - 07:56 AM.

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#92 OFFLINE   fotomoto

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 08:06 AM

I went on a trip to Austin, TX and it got up to 101*F and my HVB temp got upto 114*F with SOC between 40 -50%.  Using A/C raised HVB temp 2-4*F, interesting. :headscratch:

 

Paul

 

Yeah, recommendations to keep battery temps in the 80's don't realize what real summers are like!   LOL   My battery pretty much lives at 90+ F from May to October yet I've never encountered the high temp threshold because I don't charge in the sun in the afternoons.


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#93 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 08:24 AM

All this heat is not good down south.  It hurts the battery and lowers its life expectancy when its hot like that its best to leave it lower charge level not fully charged.  Even with hybrids it hurts the battery, its hard to see it unless you are a pretty particular person that is anal in keeping track of everything.  I'm sure Paul being the person he is can see that the hybrid battery is not as good as it used to be, and being so hot in Texas on his recent trip having it pegged at 114F I'm sure if he ran the EV range test now of how far he can go on the hybrid before it won't go any more I'm sure he would see that its less than it used to be just recently.  If its not obvious to him then if he drove a newer Cmax (say a friend's or a test drive at a dealer) he would see a big difference between new and a 5 year old battery the lives in Georgia.

 

Try to keep your batteries cool, and try to prioritize that the battery is #1 engine is #2 for Energi users.  Use the engine to not stress the battery when possible.  The practice of trying to not use the engine at all in the Energi world doesn't always make sense.  Sometimes sure, but not always.

 

-=>Raja.



#94 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 07:32 AM

If I had to guess I don't think I've lost more than 20% of HVB capacity in 200k mi./5.6 yrs and I'm getting the best MPG's that I have ever gotten. Fuelly average for the last 10 fillups with trips to NY and Austin, TX was 55 mpg. As you have said don't charge your HVB past 80% when it's hot.  The Hybrid only charges up to 65% SOC normally and practically I only use it between 38 - 52% SOC. :smile2:

 

Paul


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#95 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 15 June 2018 - 09:41 AM

Instead of "I don't think", try it.  Next time your hybrid battery is "full" at 65%, try to drive in EV mode as far as you can on a flat road and see how far you go before the blue bar on the left in empower is down to a sliver and the engine has to start.

 

Think back how far you could go before, I'm sure you remember and you might have already posted it if I search for it you might have said 2 to 3 miles IIRC, so compare what you had before to now.  Then you can figure out how much capacity you lost.  Might be more than 20% even especially now with you peaking the battery at 114F in Texas, plus, there is alot of miles on the car batteries age and have so many cycles...

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 15 June 2018 - 09:42 AM.


#96 OFFLINE   SyNRG

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 01:51 PM

The only time AC helps is if you are plugged in, charging, and AC on blasting inside the car then that cools the battery down as plug in power is being used to run the AC not the battery and the charge rate on the battery becomes very low, down to 1 amp average.  I did this with 120v charging in the garage in shade, not sure the effect with 240v charging that will make more heat than 120v both in the charging circuit as well as the battery.

 

-=>Raja.

 

Wasn't this referred to by GaryF (believe that was his name) as "supercharging"?  Remember that thread?  May start doing this the remainder of the summer, was 113 last week and has been cresting upper 90s all week here.



#97 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 06:26 PM

No, the supercharging was trying to stuff more charge into the battery.  If the system is charging the battery, it knows to stop when the cells reach a certain charge level.  But turn the AC on and you cause a load, so the level of the battery drops.  Then you charge it with the system on and it bring it up to the usual level so to speak, but turn off the AC and now the battery is more charged than it was before.  

 

It may naturally stop when it gets to 98-98.5 SOC, but with the car on and AC on you will get it into the 99.x range.  It really isn't that much, but that's what he was talking about.  Nothing to do with cooling.  

 

That guy LONG SINCE cooked his battery (maybe after the first year) as he never used gas and charged all the time in Florida out of all places.  You can imagine the battery pack getting hot easily there with the temps and his ways.  He even tried to ask the dealer to drain his "dealer gas" in the Cmax and give it to him in two 5 gallon jugs, so he could put it in his Explorer.  The "dealer gas" was a year old and he didn't want to start the engine and ruin his 438.5 mpg.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 11 July 2018 - 06:29 PM.


#98 OFFLINE   vossman77

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 06:05 AM

So, I have been manually tracking my battery capacity on my 2013 Ford Cmax Energi since February and I am averaging only 4.1 kWh from a fully charged battery and only 17 EV miles rather than the normal 5.5 kWh and 21 miles. This is not the best, because my normal commute is exactly 20 miles. When I bought the car, I never had to use gas in the summer, now I use gas everyday. The climate is Chicago, IL, so cold winters, but the capacity is still low.

 

Is there any way to get to Ford customer service without having to start with my (EV stupid) local dealer. With my FCA/Chrysler Hybrid, I can contact customer service on the forums and then they contact my dealer to setup the proper tests. Reddit user samboydh
made a great series of posts on his painful story about getting a replacement battery:

I measure the capacity, by charging the car to 100% at home, then driving past 0% to work, charge at work to 100%, and finally drive home past 0%. I then log in to the MyFord Mobile website: trip and charge log to see how many kWh were used on the drive:

Anyway, Ford will likely reject my claim, since the battery is not failing, it is just low capacity. There are some rumors that the 4.0 kWh threshold is where you get a new battery. I just want a car that can get 20 EV miles in good weather.

 

Edit: added a distribution plot of my capacity: https://i.imgur.com/5rMtMGN.png


Edited by vossman77, 12 July 2018 - 10:21 AM.


#99 OFFLINE   dontfret

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Posted 15 July 2018 - 03:13 PM

 

So, I have been manually tracking my battery capacity on my 2013 Ford Cmax Energi since February and I am averaging only 4.1 kWh from a fully charged battery and only 17 EV miles rather than the normal 5.5 kWh and 21 miles. This is not the best, because my normal commute is exactly 20 miles. When I bought the car, I never had to use gas in the summer, now I use gas everyday. The climate is Chicago, IL, so cold winters, but the capacity is still low.

 

Is there any way to get to Ford customer service without having to start with my (EV stupid) local dealer. With my FCA/Chrysler Hybrid, I can contact customer service on the forums and then they contact my dealer to setup the proper tests. Reddit user samboydh
made a great series of posts on his painful story about getting a replacement battery:


  •  
  •  

Anyway, Ford will likely reject my claim, since the battery is not failing, it is just low capacity. There are some rumors that the 4.0 kWh threshold is where you get a new battery. I just want a car that can get 20 EV miles in good weather.

 

Edit: added a distribution plot of my capacity: https://i.imgur.com/5rMtMGN.png

 

 

We're car twins - I bought my 2013 to make a 20-mile commute, and now get around 4.0 kWh and around 14 miles EV on city streets off-highway roads. 1.  Instead of trying to guesstimate the capacity or use MFM, get an OBD2 reader, torque app and read the NRG2MT sensor - tells you at full charge what the total kWh available is, then just look again after it goes into hybrid mode (battery will always retain around 1.2- 1.6 kWh as a hybrid mode) to see what it delivered.  Then cry - it really will be around 3.5 - 4.  2.  Getting Ford customer service will be of no additional value - they all have the same party line, AND HAVE NEVER/WILL NEVER DEFINE A LEVEL AT WHICH THE BATTERY WILL BE OUT OF WARRANTY.  Whether you're down to 4.0, 3.0, makes no difference as the warranty does not state a level - Ford CS told me that actual warranty level "is proprietarty and cannot be shared with customers."  ?!?!?!!? (I'm too polite to type WTF).  HOW CAN THE WARRANTY BE PROPRIETARY?!?!?  Unlike Tesla, for example "Tesla are now quantifying their battery degradation guarantee... ... Vehicles with Standard Range Battery - 8 years or 100,000 miles (160,000 km), whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period."  That's clear.  3. The class action lawsuit was abandoned by the law firm, so don't hold out for that either.  I was in contact with them most of last year as they requested me to be the class representative (I declined since I would have to commit to owning the vehicle when the case settled, likely 5 years, and being avaialble for many hours of abusive depositions by Ford to discredit the claim).

 

So you can do what I do - Just enjoy your car as a hybrid with a plug-in 'kicker' that averages around 70 MPG.  This isn't a pure electric car - it's a plug-in hybrid.  4.  You want "20 miles EV miles in good weather", get a 2018 and enjoy it  :lol:


Edited by dontfret, 15 July 2018 - 03:49 PM.


#100 OFFLINE   raucous

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Posted 15 July 2018 - 06:23 PM

... 4.  You want "20 miles EV miles in good weather", get a 2018 and enjoy it  :lol:

Ha ha. Sigh...

 

My 2013 has an EV capacity of about 4.3 kWh this time of year (taken from the trip meter). A bit more but I'm also in the position of having a route that I can no longer cover on a charge even in good weather. So... Triplets?

 

I'm sorry to hear that the class action suit was abandoned.










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