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Low Battery capacity thread (4.5 kwh or lower via myfordmobile)


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48 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   rayw

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 03:33 PM

2013 CMax Energi, Leased and Returned

37959 miles

Tucson, AZ

4.3 KWh, 17.4 EV miles

 

2014 CMax Energi, Bought used at a good price because we liked the CMax Energy so much!

44122 miles

Tucson, AZ but driven mostly (approx 40K) in Phoenix by previous owner where it is hotter.

4.3 KWh, 17.4 EV miles

 

Surprise to me!!!  I thought the used Cmax, although newer one had more lost capacity by previous owner, but today I compared the numbers and found them exactly the same!  Thanks for starting this thread!  Good to see what others are getting. 

Ray









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#22 OFFLINE   cmwv

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Posted 04 February 2017 - 12:34 PM

2013 CMax Energi

92000 miles - 58000 of them EV

Northeastern WV (near Wash. DC)

3.9 KWh

 

Had battery evaluated by dealer, but Ford won't replace under warranty. Normal degradation, they say.



#23 OFFLINE   bdginmo

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Posted 04 February 2017 - 01:49 PM

So far the lowest (correct me if I'm wrong) reported in this thread is 3.8. There are a couple of 3.9's as well and several that are still over 4.0.

 

This is making me wonder if the degradation slows down as it approaches 4.0. Keep the reports coming.



#24 OFFLINE   viajero

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 07:41 AM

This is making me wonder if the degradation slows down as it approaches 4.0. Keep the reports coming.

 

No such luck. I'm at 51 months, 57000 miles, 3.5 kWh and falling.


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#25 OFFLINE   viajero

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 07:15 PM

Well, once I said that, it did pretty much stop further degradation. Almost 8 months later, including a hot summer, I was still getting 3.5 or 3.6 kWh.

I suspect there is some self-limiting because as the battery lost capacity and the self-heating increased, I couldn’t drive as many EV miles each day as I did when the car was new.

#26 OFFLINE   marlowefamily

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Posted 02 October 2017 - 08:36 PM

Is this degradation only happening to those who charge during the day and/or over use EV at higher speeds?  Or to everyone?  I have a new 2017 and am being careful to only charge it between 10pm-5am when it is cooler outside in San Diego, and to switch to the gas motor whenever I get on the freeway or go up a long hill.



#27 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 02 October 2017 - 08:48 PM

Marlowe, yes try to be easy on the battery.  Should only use it continuously at 1 bar of power or less.  If the road/incline required extended 2 bars of power, start the engine especially if its hot then go back on the battery.  On the highway for sure start the engine and save the battery for later.

 

Things to think about:

 

a) if you are driving a trip 100% EV, take the shortest way there, avoid highways.  If you have to go on the highway, limit your speed to 45-50mph in EV power.

b) in 100% EV trip also, any hills limit the power to 2 bars tops, or 1.5 bars and let the car slow down some up the hill.  You can try to pickup a little speed before the hill and let it slow down in the climb.

 

c) if the engine is already in use and hot, always start the engine when the power demand is higher.  To climb a hill and then you can go back on battery, or to go on the highway.

 

d) when you DO start the engine, you have to actually WAIT until the engine is hot before you can use the power.  If you try to use the power right away you're actually stressing out the battery by taking 3/4 of the load from the battery and maybe 1/4 from the engine as its limited to 1500 rpms max.  Look at the engage screen, you will see the battery load and engine load.  Wait until the battery load drops off before stepping on the gas.  What does this mean?

 

What it means is that when you get on the highway and switch to EV later, you need to STAY at 45-50 mph for a couple of minutes until the engine warms up and actually takes the load before you speed up to 65mph.  This is only from a cold start.  Once the engine is hot you can get on the highway from a side street and switch to EV later and go.  If its cold, wait for it to warm up first.  Its not EV later and you're on the engine, its EV later and you're warming up the engine preparing it to take the load off the battery and during that time you're STILL on the battery!  Once warmed up, wait for the next downhill and then speed up to 65mph - never try to accelerate uphill, its inefficient you want to keep the engine at 2 bars of power while accelerating for most efficiency.  It will take longer than "normal" to get up to speed but your MPG numbers will shine and you'll be in the max efficiency range of the engine.

 

Hope that helps!!

 

As far as charging, don't charge during the day in the sun.  You can go out in the evening and charge in the evening or night no problem.  Just avoid charging in the heat.  Also another tip is to flip the right seat seat forward and remove the hatch for the HVB disconnect to let the heat out while charging.  Also roll down the windows in the car as if you don't it gets hot inside and the hot air circulates around and warms up the HVB (not what you want).  In my garage my windows are down while charging in the summer all the way.  On the road they are down 1 inch each.  At home if I'm charging and I hear the fan racing, then I stop charging and wait for a later time.  A fast fan means the HVB/charger are hot, not the best time to be adding more heat charging.  I realize you don't always have a choice, but given a choice, if its hot, wait for later.  

 

Don't charge the battery every night to 100% if you don't need it the next day.  If its all used up let it rest the day you get home (or night).  Wait several hours maybe even until the morning for it to cool, and then charge it a little bit in segments so you're not full but you're not empty either.  Right now my Angel (cmax) is sitting at 41%.  For example I came home Saturday night, it was 0%.  On Sunday morning I charged it to 10% and left it as I knew I needed to go to the grocery store later and 10% is enough to get there.  Once at the store Sunday evening, I plugged it onto their HV charger while shopping.  It went up from around 0 to 50%.  Then I drove home and I got 41% left.  I let it sit like that, since I didn't need to use the car today.  Sitting partial charge is better than sitting for a couple of days at 100% charge.  And, at partial charge its only a couple of hours from a full charge.  So if and when I need to go out, I make a determination of how much charge I need, and charge it before I go.  Might be 100%, might be nothing if I'm going somewhere to a public charger, or might be something if I can't reach that charger with 41%.  I know how much % I need to go somewhere, so I'll put in what I need and go.  If there is no charger at the destination then I put in 100% and go.  Make sense?

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 02 October 2017 - 09:03 PM.


#28 OFFLINE   Tom_NC_1

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Posted 03 October 2017 - 06:25 AM

acceleration

Is this degradation only happening to those who charge during the day and/or over use EV at higher speeds?  Or to everyone?  I have a new 2017 and am being careful to only charge it between 10pm-5am when it is cooler outside in San Diego, and to switch to the gas motor whenever I get on the freeway or go up a long hill.

 

For the most part I agree with the advice Raja is giving you the protect the HVB capacity. I lost about 1kWh during the hot summer of 2015 when the HVB  reached 113ºf where the software often kicked is to force EV later mode. I started using the ScanGauge to monitor HVB Temp and have since then actively prevented any overheating of the HVB with a goal to keep summer maximum HVB to no less than 105ºf. 

 

In hot summers of 2016 and 2017 I have not lost any additional capacity.

 

My basic rules for charging reflects the fact that the overnight lows in NC are quite high so cooling off the HVB is always difficult during the summer. Anytime the daily high temperature is above 80ºf limit charging to once per day. If the HVB is above 96ºf  delay charging until late at night. When overnight lows are >80ºf I stop charging and only drive in EV later. I have also found that charging as soon as possible to allow more time before the next drive has worked well to cool the HVB a bit better.

 

Unlike Raja I use a level 2 charger at home and after plugging in let the HVB charge to full. A level 1 charger takes longer to charge the HVB but I would still forget to go and unplug it. I am less disciplined than Raja. I have observed no down side to charging to full when plugging in.

 

To avoid heat build up in the HVB, limit fast acceleration or hard braking and drive using EV later when traveling above 40MPH. Even moderate braking generates a surprising amount of AMPs. Unfortunately where I live lots of braking and acceleration are required do to traffic flow causing heat build up in the HVB that I have to watch.

 

With fall finally showing up I will go back to charging more than once per day. Used half the capacity of the HVB this AM and on getting home the HVB temp was still <70ºf. Charging up again for an afternoon trip. Love it when I don't need to monitor the HVB temp.

 

Tom



#29 OFFLINE   marlowefamily

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Posted 03 October 2017 - 10:12 AM

Thanks for the advice.  I wasn't aware about the engine warmup time.  That actually explains why I've seen a lag in switching off EV in some drives.   Only thing I'm not sure of is how smart the 'EV AUTO' mode is in the 2017's - I would expect Ford to have programmed it to be conservative and to have improved the auto algorithm over the years, especially to protect the battery.  I've only had my car for roughly 1 month now.  The first 1-2 weeks, I had it on auto.  The last few weeks I've been manually switching as needed from EV Later to EV Now and back in order to protect the battery.



#30 OFFLINE   Joshua Goldman

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Posted 03 October 2017 - 02:36 PM

Joshua in San Diego

2013 Cmax Energi - all options

88,000 miles

 

75% freeway.  Level 2 charge overnight at home, Level 1 or 2 charge at work.  

 

Generally get 3.5-3.9 kWh per EV portion on a 32 mile mostly freeway commute to work including grade from sea level to foothills (OB to Escondido for locals).  I rarely get more than 15 miles EV, 11 typical, hypermiling around the beach <30mph, maybe 17+.  When new got 17 easy, 21 often, and 27 record and up to 5.4kWh (according to trip meter).  Dark Car with Dark Interior often parked in the sun with 100+ deg weather at work, and 60'-80's at home.  

Battery will usually drain to empty (one sliver on hybrid gauge) quick when i have 2 miles left on range estimator, then when i get to my destination and turn back on the car it will have 2 miles magically appear.  

Dealer and Ford customer service give the same bullshit that's normal wear and tear answer.  I'm expecting by the time my 72 month loan is paid off I'll have a shitty 35 real world MPG hybrid with a shitty truck.  At least the car drive fast and nice.  

 

Photo of best i've done recently attached.  

 

-joshua

 

 

Attached Files



#31 OFFLINE   S70Pilot

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 10:09 AM

2014 CMax in Toronto, Canada (Cooler weather) 

 

93000 KM (not miles) on odometer

 

80% or more in EV mode lifetime, mostly city.  On highway I switch to EV later

 

Charge twice a day, one Level 1 charge at home at night, one Level 2 Charge at work

 

Now about 4.4-4.7 kWh, about 38km range left displayed on screen (and about right estimate).  I can squeeze about 48km when it is new with regen

 

Daily trip is about 84km (round trip), plus another 100km or so on weekends.

 

Already used most / all 'tips' that Raja gave for the past 2 years to prolong battery life



#32 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 04 October 2017 - 10:14 AM

93k KM is about 57,800 miles.  Battery at 4.4 to 4.7 is quite low.  I drove my 2013 Cmax to 73476 miles or 118k KM and my battery was still putting out 5.3 at least.

 

What is your lifetime MPG and how many EV miles to ICE miles ratio?  I had 43.5k EV miles out of 73K, so about 30k miles on the engine.  Maybe you were "late" to the methods of preserving the HVB?  Maybe if you were charging every day at work on 240v you were doing it on hot summer days also and baking in the sun?  When you come to the car and you're charging and its a sauna inside, that's when you know right away you made a big mistake and some capacity was taken off the battery that day...  Its additive, a little here a little there taken off and over time its down...

 

-=>Raja.

Attached Files


Edited by rbort, 04 October 2017 - 10:18 AM.


#33 OFFLINE   GS Dave

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 10:11 AM

I forget my mileage, but its close to 80K now.  I have been pretty consistently getting 3.8-3.9 out of it this summer.  It has been like that for about a year now.  Hasn't seemed to degrade much since then.  I am thinking if the degradation is not linear over time, it would be hard for Ford to hold to "normal" degradation.  I am about ready to take it in to ford to address the battery capacity, and get them to put in writing that this poor performance is normal.  I used to get over 25 miles on a charge, now its about 15.  If this was a pure electric, I don't think Ford would have a leg to stand on in court, but because in a pluggin, somehow it becomes OK. :(



#34 OFFLINE   raucous

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Posted 05 October 2017 - 03:19 PM

2013 C-MAX Energi
37,000 miles (19,700 EV miles) over 4.5 years
Location: Pacific Northwest
Capacity: 4.1 kWh
 
Most of the miles are small road rural (45mph maximum) and in town. It rarely gets above the low 60s here even in the summer and the car is usually charged in a shaded location. Given that it's hard to see external heat playing a significant part in the degradation we've seen. 


#35 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 06 October 2017 - 04:02 AM

Raucous:

 

Interesting situation for you.  Tell me more about your driving with the HVB.  At 19k miles your battery should have still been like new.  You might be a rare situation where some batteries in your pack are bad out of the 84 cells in there.

 

-=>Raja.



#36 OFFLINE   raucous

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Posted 07 October 2017 - 03:33 AM

I feel like this is the EV version of the little old couple who only drove their car to church on Sunday.
 
We live a bit less than 10 miles from town. The most common usage scenario is to drive into town and back on those rural roads (45 mph max with a few hundred feet of elevation change) a few times a week. When we first got the car we could make the round trip without charging - at least in the summer and with climate control mostly off. With that usage scenario we never felt compelled to install an L2 charger, so the initial charging was all L1 in cool (mostly 35 to 60F) conditions. There's been an L2 charger at the midpoint the last couple of years and we use it when it's available. It's the only way now that we can make the round trip on battery.
 
There are longer trips as well but in this area the charging infrastructure is nearly nonexistent, so they're all on the ICE once the initial battery charge is exhausted.
 
How would I tell that some of the cells are bad? I've never seen any battery related diagnostic errors. Well, not for the HV battery. The 12V battery is a story for another thread.


#37 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 08 October 2017 - 10:00 PM

Now I'm thinking those rural roads have a lot of ups and downs and even at 45mph you find yourself drawing alot of times at 2 bars from the battery or close to it, is this true?  I was in VT this weekend and I had to start the engine even though I could have driven 14 miles all on battery in rolling hills as the uphill sections would take an extended long time being at 2 bars draw and sometimes 2 bars isn't enough to maintain the speed due to the steepness of the hills.  

 

Maybe next time you take this trip watch the empower meter and get an estimate in your opinion of how often you're drawing 1.5 to 2 bars from the battery.  My way these days I'm not happy with more than 1 bar to 1.25 bars tops on the battery in sort of continuous draw.  If it starts holding 1.5 or more bars I'm switching to EV later and having the ICE start, especially while already heated up.

 

On longer trips you absolutely don't want to "exhaust the initial battery charge" first before starting the engine.  You should go back and forth battery then engine then battery then engine etc and try to keep the battery usage to 1 bar or less, start the engine when you need 1.5 bars or more.  So if going 100 miles for example, don't drive the first 20 miles on battery and then run 80 miles on the engine.  Instead use the battery piecemeal where it fits best for the least amount of draw on it so it lasts well into the trip, maybe all of it or at least more than 1/2 of it.  That would be a much better situation for the battery.  While you're driving you need to push the EV button twice to go to EV later, then push it once to go back to Auto, and then twice back to EV later and so on and so forth as many times as you can depending on the situation.  Climb hills in EV later, run in Auto on level and downhill sections when speeds are below 50.  On the highway cruise at 65 in EV later.  If you have battery remaining either get off the highway early and use the shortcut home to use some more battery (but still climb with the engine) or just abandon using the battery and arrive there with some charge left instead of burning it at high loads.

 

You won't be able to tell if cells are bad yourself, but Ford can use a program to look at each individual cell voltage and determine from there what's up with your battery.  Hope this helps.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 08 October 2017 - 10:03 PM.


#38 OFFLINE   Patrick Saindon

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 04:49 AM

2015, Montréal Canada. 30000 miles 30 miles twice a day
4,5 kw per charge

#39 OFFLINE   CRH

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 08:06 AM

Capacity really depends on temperature. If charging temperature is low and discharge temperature is high, you get more juice from the battery. Mine varied between 4.5 and 5.2 from last winter to now (now 3 yr 2 mon, 48k mi now), 5.1 kwh this morning. In the first year it's 4.9-5.9 (5.9kwh achieve in the first October, more than 3 years now). Lost 10-15%.

Edited by CRH, 07 November 2017 - 08:13 AM.


#40 OFFLINE   Milkman

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 03:29 PM

I'm fairly new to the C-Max, 103,000 miles and I haven't found how to see the capacity of the battery, anybody point me in the right direction?










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