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HVB cooling


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46 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   James2

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Posted 28 July 2016 - 07:52 PM

There is another intake under the rear passenger side seat. If you stick your hand down there you can feel cool air being taken in. I believe this what is pushing hot air out the HVB disconnect cover. The intake is directly below the cover.









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#22 OFFLINE   RubyMax

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Posted 29 July 2016 - 04:31 AM

Almost in Ohio Ruby, will be there tomorrow on the way to Indiana!

 

-=>Raja.

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#23 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 29 July 2016 - 06:27 AM

Thanks for the FYI, deleted some PMs and texted you :)

-=>Raja.

#24 OFFLINE   James2

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Posted 03 August 2016 - 08:54 PM

Ok, had sometime to look at the HVB cooling system, and this is How I THINK it works. This my guess and you are responsible for any thing you do to your car.

 

There is an intake vent under the rear passenger side seat for the charger, the air exits the rear passenger fender well.

 

The two top vents inside the rear cargo area are for the HVB. Both are intakes.  I came to this conclusion by simply feeling the air around these vents while the car was charging and also while the car was running( in park of course)

 

The airflow is very weak, I'm guessing keeping it quiet was more important than cooling, but you can feel the heat leaving the passenger side top vent and the vent under it also.

 

I got a single 50 cfm fan out, and placed it on the drivers side blowing in the vent. This does drop the temp of the HVB but the inside of the car heats up quickly, so some way to vent the air out of the car is needed. If the car is in secured, covered location the windows can simply be let down.

 

Edit. Both top vents are intakes.  Both vents below are exhaust. Verified this with


Edited by James2, 04 August 2016 - 08:39 PM.


#25 OFFLINE   bschwerdt

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 06:51 AM


The two top vents inside the rear cargo area are for the HVB. The drivers side is an intake, the passenger side in an exhaust.  I came to this conclusion by simply feeling the air around these vents while the car was charging and also while the car was running( in park of course)

 

 

Thanks for that info.  Now I'm thinking about placing an ice pack near the intake vent.  I know this is a temporary solution, but it may be good for topping off in the middle of a hot day.  The trick will be having the ice pack sufficiently cool the incoming air without obstructing its flow.



#26 OFFLINE   dontfret

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 10:32 AM

If you want to monitor the effectiveness of your improvements, or for those who just want the information, for around $15 for a bluetooth OBD2 reader and TorquePro app on my phone, I can monitor the HVB temperature in real time.  In the screenshots below, my phone is monitoring the car in the garage.  While on a long hot weather drive last week I saw the HVB temp around 109 degrees F, with AC at max cool. Just s few of the many parameters you can display.  Oil life went from 0% yesterday after an oil change to 100% after I reset it using the acceleration/brake pedals. Also reads individual tire pressure from the TPMS sensors, much more. 

 

torque pro

torque pro

Edited by dontfret, 04 August 2016 - 10:47 AM.

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#27 OFFLINE   NedB

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Posted 04 August 2016 - 06:49 PM

Folks, my intent was to augment cooling the HVB on very hot days, so consider a way to add a cooler upstream from the air inlet. Putting a bag of ice cubes in there and then forcing the pre-chilled air through the system should help, again similar to a cold air intake kit for a turbocharged engine.

#28 OFFLINE   James2

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Posted 05 August 2016 - 08:24 PM

Maybe i am not thinking outside the box, but I don't see a economical way of cooling the air entering the HVB cooling system. The ice idea would work, but only if you get free ice. If your buying ice you would be better off just using the EV later mode and burning gas.

 

I think a cooler of ice with a couple of holes cut in the top with a small fan to blow air thru it would cool the air.

 

I ordered some 148 cfm fans to see what they do. Increasing volume and speed of the air will help. That's why we have have the wind chill index.



#29 OFFLINE   NedB

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Posted 05 August 2016 - 09:33 PM

Maybe i am not thinking outside the box, but I don't see a economical way of cooling the air entering the HVB cooling system. The ice idea would work, but only if you get free ice. If your buying ice you would be better off just using the EV later mode and burning gas.

I think a cooler of ice with a couple of holes cut in the top with a small fan to blow air thru it would cool the air.

I ordered some 148 cfm fans to see what they do. Increasing volume and speed of the air will help. That's why we have have the wind chill index.


At worst $2 for ice ... Cheap vs replacing the HVB. For that matter, a couple of half gallon jugs frozen overnight & youre in business. The idea is to lower the temps as much as possible. You already tried just air & reported that the cabin temps went up... So you helped the HVB.

Ok, take that a step further, on really hot days, when it is highly likely that charging the battery will result in thermal cutback as Tom in NC has reported, take the pre-frozen ice jugs, or buy a bag of ice & try to avoid cooking the HVB! It may not help much, but it sure shouldn't be any worse for the attempt. If you recirculate the air through the cooler, it won't heat up the cabin air as much either.

#30 OFFLINE   Automate

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Posted 06 August 2016 - 05:10 AM

At worst $2 for ice ... Cheap vs replacing the HVB. For that matter, a couple of half gallon jugs frozen overnight & youre in business.

 

 

Better yet use "ice/cold packs" that are specifically designed to be reused many times in the freezer and have less risk of breaking or leaking in your car.  Put them in your freezer at night and then in the car while you drive during the day. 


Edited by Automate, 06 August 2016 - 05:12 AM.

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#31 OFFLINE   62Lincoln

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Posted 06 August 2016 - 08:04 AM

This is a little off the main idea, but for those that use value charge every night, would it help to also program the car to cool the interior to 65 degrees every night at midnight, thus giving the car much cooler interior air to cool the HVB as it charges? Even though the interior setting will turn off, presumably the cooled interior would remain at a lower temp than it started for perhaps the time it takes to charge the HVB, right?


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#32 OFFLINE   James2

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Posted 06 August 2016 - 10:14 AM

I have tons of the coller packs, my wife orders the Blue apron food, it comes in a box with a couple of the packs in them. I guess I could just freeze them and throw them back there and see what happens.

 

You correct, that it no use removing heat from the HVB if it's stuck inside the car only to heat the HVB up again.



#33 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 07 August 2016 - 05:46 AM

I notice with the CMAX Hybrid that when coasting(in Neutral)  it definitely lowers HVB temps. It does take some time to get use to it. :shift: There is more power(BAR's) available in EV Mode when I do it.  It also improves FE. :smile2:

 

Paul 



#34 OFFLINE   cwstnsko

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 07:32 AM

I stumbled across this document today that seems like it could be very useful in understanding the layout of some of the HVB cooling components

 

 http://elvsolutions.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/C-Max%20Battery%20Removal_Final.pdf


Edited by cwstnsko, 12 August 2016 - 07:33 AM.


#35 OFFLINE   ShoulderThingThatGoesUP

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 08:55 AM

If you hold your hand in front of the rear passenger-side wheel while it's charging you can just barely feel air coming out, which is where that link shows the outlet to be, it looks like.



#36 OFFLINE   geekdaddy

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Posted 06 May 2017 - 06:05 AM

This is a very good conversation thread and thanks to the folks that have explained how the system works.  I'm a new C-Max Energi owner and had just assumed that the pack was liquid cooled.  A little disappointed that it's not... Nissan Leaf battery degradation seems fairly significant and likely because of poor thermal design.  Chevy Volt and Fiat 500e's are liquid cooled and thus far seem to be doing much better wrt degradation.  Hope our C-Max batteries can go the distance with Ford's battery tech and air cooling system...

 

My biggest concern is "heat soaking" -- when you've been driving on a very hot day and have to park the vehicle afterward.  At that point the ambient temp is hot and the vehicle is hot so more likely to see a temp rise on the batteries.  Anyone had any experience with that?

 

Also -- I'm still learning about my C-Max features but is there a way to keep the batteries warmer in Northern Winter climates if the vehicle is plugged-in overnight?



#37 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 06 May 2017 - 06:08 AM

Try to always park in the shade if possible.  Might mean you need to park in the back end of the parking lot next to a tree and walk all the way back to the store.  Forget about close parking spots, shade is what your car needs on hot days. My car is 4 years old just about, with 69k miles and over 40k ev miles, still original tires, 12v battery, and the HVB makes over 5kwh per charge.  I haven't done a full range test lately, but I would say its about 10% down from new.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 06 May 2017 - 06:10 AM.


#38 OFFLINE   bdginmo

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Posted 06 May 2017 - 06:14 AM

This is a very good conversation thread and thanks to the folks that have explained how the system works.  I'm a new C-Max Energi owner and had just assumed that the pack was liquid cooled.  A little disappointed that it's not... Nissan Leaf battery degradation seems fairly significant and likely because of poor thermal design.  Chevy Volt and Fiat 500e's are liquid cooled and thus far seem to be doing much better wrt degradation.  Hope our C-Max batteries can go the distance with Ford's battery tech and air cooling system...
 
My biggest concern is "heat soaking" -- when you've been driving on a very hot day and have to park the vehicle afterward.  At that point the ambient temp is hot and the vehicle is hot so more likely to see a temp rise on the batteries.  Anyone had any experience with that?
 
Also -- I'm still learning about my C-Max features but is there a way to keep the batteries warmer in Northern Winter climates if the vehicle is plugged-in overnight?


Just know that on those hot summer days you should curtail or even eliminate charging altogether. This will help mitigate degradation since we believe a lot of it is caused by a combination of high heat and high SoC.

In the winter park the car in the garage if you can and use value charging to delay the charge until just before you leave for the day. The charging process will warm up the battery.

Search this forum and the sister site for the Fusion Energi for threads where we've discussed HVB temperature and degradation mitigation strategies.

For what it's worth I have 30,000k miles on my FFE and I've only seen 0.1-0.2 kwh of degradation at most. I'm still pulling about 5.3-5.4 kwh from the battery. I stop charging the HVB if the temperature is above 90F.

Edited by bdginmo, 06 May 2017 - 06:16 AM.


#39 OFFLINE   JonC

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 06:18 PM

Just as a counter point to what others have seen...

 

I've had my C-Max for about a year now, not much noticeable battery degradation at all, was over 5.3 the last time I checked.  I charge any time it's in the driveway, which is shaded by trees in the summer, but still gets some sun and last summer was hot, quite a few 90+ days.  I'm at about 92k miles, over half that EV, it's a 2013, former fleet car, had 75k when I bought it, it started life in New Orleans, I got it in Houston, so it's not been sheltered from heat, ever. 

 

I'm not a gentle driver.  I'm at about 45 MPGe, and I'm very happy with that, my last car was at about 12 MPG, so that's a huge win.  I put it in hybrid mode when I'm on the interstate, but other than that I don't worry about taking it easy on the car, my girlfriend doesn't even do that, she runs on battery until it's gone.  My foot and the floor are pretty well acquainted.  I do try to be nice to the brakes, MFM has me in the top 25 in my region on regen miles now, I've been in the top 10 before, but that's not exactly being nice to the battery either.

 

I don't think this car needs to be babied.



#40 OFFLINE   altabrig

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Posted 19 May 2017 - 07:11 PM

Sounds like you got a solid car with hopefully easy mile in it. Is it possible that being a fleet vehicle the HVB wasn't charged very often relative to the total miles?

I have pussy footed the car for mileage, but have driven it EV and charged on a couple abnormally hot days.

Pretty crappy that a few hot drives and charges can ruin a large portion of the Li-on cells/capacity - assuming they didn't just go bad for some other more random reason.








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