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Grade Assist on EV later


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17 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   agincourt

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Posted 05 July 2016 - 07:30 AM

Just completed a 5000 km trip and it was a great experience.  This is a terrific car, very relaxing to drive I think because of the low noise level. I achieved 55 miles per Canadian gallon.  One question, does grade assist to charge the main battery work in EV later Mode.  It doesn't seem to work for me.  It only works on Auto and EV.  Any comments?









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#2 OFFLINE   Tom_NC_1

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Posted 05 July 2016 - 08:46 AM

I does make sense that grade assist would not function in EV later as it would very quickly fill up the hybrid battery reserve and not be very useful. In EV or Auto, grade assist can be used to capture energy to help fill the large portion of the HVB available. This is really beneficial for long downgrades. I don't get to use this function much as there are few grades around here. 

 

Tom



#3 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 05 July 2016 - 08:54 AM

Tom, I wonder if there really is a limit or not.  I have not seen it in EV later.  In other words if you start going down a grade and charging the HVB and the set point was say 55%, it really isn't limited to 57 or 58, I've seen it go higher before and the car just knows the set point is 55 and will use all excess battery when the time comes, with a 2 bar limit in EV later.  Someone can or may have already tested this, I'm pretty sure I had my HVB up at least 4 maybe 5% past the set point in the past 3 years.

 

-=>Raja.



#4 OFFLINE   jdbob

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Posted 05 July 2016 - 09:25 AM

At least on my 2013 grade assist does work in EV Later mode. For instance, in my recent trip to California, I had 60% at the start of Cuesta Grade (near San Luis Obispo) and at the bottom I had 73%. I could have just left it there where it would eventually drop down back around 60% but I decided to "bank" it by cycling through the modes back to EV Later which set the new target at 73%.


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#5 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 05 July 2016 - 09:43 AM

^^^ There you go, my suspicious is verified, cool!

 

-=>Raja.



#6 OFFLINE   bschwerdt

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Posted 05 July 2016 - 11:50 AM

I too have used hill assist in EV Later mode.  However, if you start your trip in EV later, you are driving around with a full battery.  If you then decent a long hill, there is no place for the energy to go.  Does this describe your situation?



#7 OFFLINE   jdbob

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Posted 05 July 2016 - 12:01 PM

I too have used hill assist in EV Later mode.  However, if you start your trip in EV later, you are driving around with a full battery.  If you then decent a long hill, there is no place for the energy to go.  Does this describe your situation?

 

Good point. If you know you have large hills to go down then it's best to burn off power from the battery until you have room to refill it going downhill. I made the mistake of having 80% or so when I started the long downhill from the Mt. Lassen area going towards Red Bluff. I filled the battery halfway down and so had to use the friction brakes for the rest.


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#8 OFFLINE   agincourt

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Posted 05 July 2016 - 06:19 PM

Not withstanding some of the comments above, here is my latest take.  We know that there is one battery but it is computer divided (unequally) into one larger part - the main battery used for AUTO and EV mode - and the other smaller part used when in Hybrid mode i.e EV later.  It is my view that Grade Assist ONLY functions when in AUTO or EV mode as that is the time the main battery is used.  Grade assist puts energy back into the main battery, we know that for sure.  In EV later - hybrid mode - there is regeneration into the hybrid when coasting, braking and going down hill.  You can see that happening with the little inverted V.

 

Here is the test, choose a route where you know that grade assist works in AUTO or EV mode.  Note the battery charge before and after this test.  Switch to EV later and repeat the exact same route using grade assist at the same places you did on the first test.  Check the battery charge at the end.  I did this just now and there was no increase in battery charge when I stopped and check the charge (on AUTO).

 

Perhaps others can do this and report.

 

I called two dealers who sell the C Mac Energi and they had no clue, to one I had the repeat the words "grade assist".

 

A Google search turned up nothing so I emailed Ford and I'll report what they say. 

 

It is tragic to me that Ford makes so little effort to market what is a pretty sensational vehicle.  They certainly aren't making much effort to train their sales ans service staff (and write clear manuals).



#9 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 05 July 2016 - 07:05 PM

Agincourt, I'm not following your logic or findings.  Where did you check to see that you didn't have more battery?  On the main screen you can push the leaf icons on the bottom center and it should show you the HVB charge level in %.  That number will go up when using hill assist until it turns blue and hits 100%.  At that point you will start the engine to brake as there is no more room in the HVB.

 

Speaking of this:

 

Good point. If you know you have large hills to go down then it's best to burn off power from the battery until you have room to refill it going downhill. I made the mistake of having 80% or so when I started the long downhill from the Mt. Lassen area going towards Red Bluff. I filled the battery halfway down and so had to use the friction brakes for the rest.

 

Excellent advice, there is a hill on 84 from NY going down to PA and when I'm driving that way on the highway I'm always in EV later.  If my battery is full at 93 to 95% because I came out of a restaurant where I charged in Danbury, CT, I have to make sure I burn the battery down to 90% or below as this steep downhill for 3 miles or so will charge the HVB back up by about 9%.  Its stupid to run out of room and waste the energy, so you burn down some of the battery before then to make sure you have room to do it.  On the highway I do the opposite of banking extra charge or charging with the ICE while driving, I keep resetting EV later lower every chance I get due to the car using the battery to assist the engine on some inclines or whatnot.  It may take me 10 miles or more to take 5% off the battery, I have to wait for the right moments to cycle EV later, but that seems to work pretty good rather than switching into auto mode and using up battery on the highway at 65mph.

 

-=>Raja.



#10 OFFLINE   agincourt

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Posted 05 July 2016 - 08:37 PM

I chose a route where I know I can add 2 to the battery charge using grade assist in Auto. I read the battery charge (it was 5) and ran in EV later mode.  I travelled in this mode  using grade assist  and I got no increase in battery charge. This makes me think that grade assist does not charge the main battery in EV later.   I believe grade assist only works in Auto or EV to charge the main battery .  In EV later grade assist only charges the hybrid section of the battery.

 

I will be interested to see what Ford says, if they reply.

 

I'll check what you say in the first section of your reply



#11 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 05 July 2016 - 08:47 PM

Do me a favour and shoot a little youtube video while you're driving the car and show me what you mean.  I have lots of youtube videos to show how to best use the car and how to recharge while driving, get high gas mileage, etc.  I think you must be missing something in your determination of charge, I've pretty much got this car figured inside and out and no increase in battery charge while in EV later makes no sense to me.  

 

Just reading your post, you say you can add "2" to the battery charge, what do you mean by that, 2 miles range?  Are you looking at the battery icon?  Also you say "I read the battery charge (it was 5)" do you mean 5% or 5 miles?  I'm thinking you're looking at miles...

 

In another post you talk about the "little inverted V" I presume you mean below the battery.   But the V indicates the battery is draining not charging, though you say "In EV later - hybrid mode - there is regeneration into the hybrid when coasting, braking and going down hill."   When the battery is charging as you're " coasting, braking and going down hill" you should see a hat ^ above the battery, not a V below it.  That works in any mode, AUTO, EV or EV later.

 

Do you understand how all these 3 modes work?  I don't think Ford is going to reply to you, some of those guys (dealer/sales guys) don't even know how the stuff works and they make up answers as they go along.  When I was test driving the Cmax I asked alot of questions, and I can tell you now many of the answers given were incorrect, I didn't know that at the time.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 05 July 2016 - 08:49 PM.


#12 OFFLINE   agincourt

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Posted 05 July 2016 - 09:27 PM

In reply to some of your post.  When I said 5, I mean 5 km EV Range.  Remember I'm in Canada.  So when I say I added 2, 5 km EV range would go to 7 km EV range.

 

On the hat symbol. Yes, my little inverted V is your hat at the top of the Blue column meaning charging.  The V goes at the bottom as you say indicating discharge.

 

I am not suggesting that there is no battery charge increase in EV later as you suggest.  I am saying that there is charging on coasting and braking but of the hydrid section of the battery not the main battery .  You are aware that the battery is configured into two sections, main and hybrid?

 

Yes, I do understand the three modes.

 

Enjoying the conversation.



#13 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 05 July 2016 - 10:04 PM

"Enjoying the conversation."

 

Me too!  I'm just trying to teach you stuff, I hope nothing I say is taken the wrong way, I'm just trying to help.  Ok last reply I gotta go to bed...

 

It is one battery, the hybrid section is any section of that battery, whether its in the top end (95% saved), middle, say 50%, or when its "dead" at 0%, its all hybrid mode.

 

You realize auto and EV modes are practically the same, with small differences.  Both use up the  entire battery first, and then go to hybrid mode when the battery is dead.  In Auto mode you can start the engine for more power if you floor it, in EV mode it will accelerate as fast as electric can and that's it.

 

In Auto mode the engine can start for other things like demanding heat, where in EV mode it will try to refrain from using the engine but eventually if its cold enough even in that mode the engine will start up.

 

Looking at miles or KMs  the range and increase or decrease based on how much power your drawing for any given distance traveled.   However, you should look at the battery % as they will change first before you even see 1 mile or KM added or subtracted from the range.  You will find it on the screen that I posted about earlier.  

 

Next week I'll be in Canada too, though not near you but in Montreal.  If you were close to Montreal I'd say come visit, and we can discuss tips and driving tricks over coffee or some food.  

 

Just to be clear, "I am saying that there is charging on coasting and braking but of the hydrid section of the battery not the main battery", its all the same battery there is no hybrid "section" that is not the main battery, when you say hybrid its just a carved out piece of the same battery, in general +2% of the EV later set point to -5% on average.  It can vary slightly more but generally the car wants to lock the battery charge level in that range.  When the battery is dead (0%) your hybrid "little" battery will go down about 6% before empty, so from 0 to -6% though negative % is not shown, its in reality from about 21% down to about 15% (21% is 0% indicated on the dashboard because you can't drain the battery down to 0% in real life without damage).

 

At the end of the day, tomorrow go try this test drive again but look at the charge % instead of KM in estimated range and let me know once you see the charge % going up in any mode in hill decent.

 

-=>Raja.



#14 OFFLINE   bschwerdt

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Posted 06 July 2016 - 04:36 AM


Excellent advice, there is a hill on 84 from NY going down to PA and when I'm driving that way on the highway I'm always in EV later.  If my battery is full at 93 to 95% because I came out of a restaurant where I charged in Danbury, CT, I have to make sure I burn the battery down to 90% or below as this steep downhill for 3 miles or so will charge the HVB back up by about 9%.  Its stupid to run out of room and waste the energy, so you burn down some of the battery before then to make sure you have room to do it.  On the highway I do the opposite of banking extra charge or charging with the ICE while driving, I keep resetting EV later lower every chance I get due to the car using the battery to assist the engine on some inclines or whatnot.  It may take me 10 miles or more to take 5% off the battery, I have to wait for the right moments to cycle EV later, but that seems to work pretty good rather than switching into auto mode and using up battery on the highway at 65mph.

 

-=>Raja.

 

If this hill is the one I'm thinking of (between exits 17 and 16 westbound), I am very familiar with it.  My mother lives at the top of that hill, and I drive it often enough.  Last time I drove down, I gained 12% charge via hill assist! I was watching the center console which reports battery SoC (state of charge) in percentage.  Moreover, the car successfully held its speed.  That's a steep hill (steeper if you take route 52 rather than I-84) and every other car I've driven will gain speed down it, unless you occasionally tap the friction brakes.  Even my Honda Insight hybrid would do this.  It would fill up its puny 0.5kWh battery less than a third of the way down, and then essentially shift into neutral (not even engine braking).  With the CMax's much larger battery, it just eats up all of that potential energy and saves it for later.  This car truly rocks! :happy feet:



#15 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 06 July 2016 - 07:05 AM

Yes sir indeed, I believe we're talking about the same hill or should I said mountain decent into the valley, when you get to the bottom its port Jervis and an opportunity to get cheaper gas if you need it on exit 1 in NJ.  I'm not 100% sure because I looked at the map just now and I don't see route 52 near 84 in that area.   No wait a minute, I just found yours, no that's a different hill.  I'm talking about the one at the end of NY into PA, you descend from the summit I forget there is a max elevation sign there all the way into the valley.  That one needs at least 9% reserved if I recall correctly, and I do it at slower speeds if you are running faster it might regen more but I don't want to regen very hard, so I'm going down around 50mph not 65 or 70.

 

But you're right, the car is WONDERFUL as you get to go down at the same speed and capture all that energy while the people on your tail are riding their brakes, such a waste...I hate friction brakes now!!

 

-=>Raja.



#16 OFFLINE   stevedebi

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Posted 06 July 2016 - 08:01 AM

The hill assist will work in any mode. The battery will continue to add capacity until it gets full, even in EV later mode - it will simply keep filling up. If you don't "capture" the energy at the bottom of the hill, it will quickly just use it back up by going pure EV until it gets back to the normal EV Later HVB amount.

 

If the entire HVB gets full, the engine will come in and run, but not burn gas, to help brake the car.

 

Hill assists is designed to help keep the speed down. It works the same as "L" mode, but without as much regen.

 

The hybrid and Energi work the exact same way, except that we have a larger HVB, so the engine braking won't come on as often.

 

Lots of cars have hill assist. My 2003 Honda CR-V had it, for example.



#17 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 06 July 2016 - 08:38 AM

^^^ Very good points Steve :)

 

Only think I will add is that hill assist is variable regen depending on the grade while "L" mode is fixed high regen which will slow the car down if the grade is not steep enough.  Hill assist won't as when the grade is shallower its less regen and when its steeper its more regen until the hill is too steep then its equal regen to "L" mode at which point the car will pickup speed anyways.

 

-=>Raja.



#18 OFFLINE   stevedebi

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Posted 07 July 2016 - 09:50 AM

^^^ Very good points Steve :)

 

Only think I will add is that hill assist is variable regen depending on the grade while "L" mode is fixed high regen which will slow the car down if the grade is not steep enough.  Hill assist won't as when the grade is shallower its less regen and when its steeper its more regen until the hill is too steep then its equal regen to "L" mode at which point the car will pickup speed anyways.

 

-=>Raja.

Quite possible, but I've not noticed it myself. I don't use the hill mode much. Too many habits picked up from my Escape Hybrid, where I used L a lot.










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