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My bad - what's your vote, replace 2 or 4 tires??


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37 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   dontfret

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 01:02 PM

After a lifetime of non-EV cars and trained to rotating tires every other oil change, I neglected to rotate my 2013 NRG Michelin ESAS tires until at 28,000 miles the fronts are down to the wear indicators, the rears are still very good.  Stop laughing, I know I did bad. :doh:  Of course - that's what you'd expect, the non-rotated fronts are expiring at half the 55,000 warranty mileage.  So my question for you tire gurus is do I now buy 2 new tires and put the good rears in front, or buy all 4 new and now commit to 7,500 mile rotations from now on?  The first play saves the money of the other two tires, but sets me up for very strange wear over time, the second obviously is another ~$400 bucks now but puts me back on track for even wear and rotation.  Just seems a shame to junk 2 half-life tires to the landfill.  

 

So what's your vote - buy 2 or 4 ??   :victory: or  :victory:  :victory:


Edited by dontfret, 10 May 2016 - 01:05 PM.








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#2 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 04:42 PM

Get 2 cheap ones now that don't have as high as a tread life, and then a couple of years from now buy all 4 good ones.  Put the cheap ones on the front since apparently they wear faster there and don't worry about tire rotation until you get a new set of 4.  

 

This way by the time you wear out the fronts again, you'll need to get all 4.

 

-=>Raja.


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#3 OFFLINE   jzchen

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 04:25 AM

2 new on front.  Wait until they get about the same tread depth as the rears, and then start the 10k mile rotations as prescribed by the manual...


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#4 OFFLINE   dontfret

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 07:28 AM

Get 2 cheap ones now that don't have as high as a tread life, and then a couple of years from now buy all 4 good ones.  Put the cheap ones on the front since apparently they wear faster there and don't worry about tire rotation until you get a new set of 4.  

 

This way by the time you wear out the fronts again, you'll need to get all 4.

 

-=>Raja.

I thought about that Raja but decided the hit on mileage from cheap non-LRR tires wouldn't be worth it.  The Michelin Energy AS lasted 29,000 miles in the front without rotation, so they really should last 55,000 with rotation.  Michelin actually gives half mileage warranty for situations where you can't rotate, like different sized fronts and rears.  I think I'll measure tread level on the two rears I have tonight, and if they are near new (say 75% of original tread level) I'll follow what is in the next post, put two new in front and wait until they are at same tread as present rears, then begin rotation.  That will void the Michelin warranty for mileage which requires proof of rotation at 6-8,000 miles, but that is pro rata rebate anyway so I don't expect to get much even if they wear out at 38,000 (unlikely), then get 4-new in 3 years.  Costco has these for around $198 installed and TPMS sensor set. 


Edited by dontfret, 11 May 2016 - 07:32 AM.


#5 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 08:09 AM

What the price difference between cheaper tires and the Michelins?  How much gas are you going to save in MPG?  You have to think about it that way.  You just need 2 tires now to hold you over until you get 4 new Michelins later.  Anyway, up to you, just my thoughts.

 

-=>Raja.


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#6 OFFLINE   dontfret

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 08:32 AM

What the price difference between cheaper tires and the Michelins?  How much gas are you going to save in MPG?  You have to think about it that way.  You just need 2 tires now to hold you over until you get 4 new Michelins later.  Anyway, up to you, just my thoughts.

 

-=>Raja.

I'm just smiling Raja at your very good and practical answer, but this from the man who runs in L to avoid activating the brake lights or waits to tuen on his headlights as long as possible to maximize EV miles  :happy feet:  :lol:  Sounds like hypermiling heresy - they can take away your charger plug for a week for that and make you reset your lifetime history  :headspin:  :hysterical: Somebody go see who has hacked rbort's account and posted this under his screen name  :hysterical3: JK my friend, I am considering just getting any two tires for now and running them all down the rear wear tread and then rotate them until they all into the trash in around two years.  Just also want a nicer ride, these Michelins at 44 PSI are a hard ride.  I go over a coin, I can tell you if it's heads up or down.



#7 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 09:45 AM

Yes you're absolutely correct about all the savings that I do and how I think about it, anyway if you buy 2 new Michelin tires now what are you going to do buy 2 more new ones when the rears wear out and then you never have 4 new tires on the car at the same time?

 

I say buy something less cost now to get you through until the 2 rears are wore, I wouldn't even spend money to rotate unless you see that the fronts are lower tread than the older rears.  With new tread on the front, might make sense that by the time they are wore out so are the rears given faster wear on the front.

 

Then they they all seem to be spent, then go get 4 new nice tires for yourself 2-3 years from now or there abouts.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 11 May 2016 - 09:46 AM.


#8 OFFLINE   dontfret

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 12:55 PM

My plan is to 1. check rear tire tread, if still quite good then 2. pick up 2 new Toyo Versado Eco( I read online some very good reviews, both in terms of mileage and wear), is also a LRR tire, and run them in the front until they equal the wear depth on the rear.  Probably will start checking every 6 months and plot the depth.  Then start rotating until all 4 wear to the wear bars (or Abe Lincoln's eyebrows) and then get 4 new tires (I'm guessing that will be 2019?), either go back to the Michelins or stay with the Toyo.  Until the HVB gives out .....



#9 OFFLINE   cwstnsko

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Posted 12 May 2016 - 05:24 AM

Not that I disagree with your approach, but it seems that in recent years you will have a hard time getting a tire shop to install the tires with more tread on the front of the car.  Their lawyers have all bought into the contrived scenario of a large sweeping turn where you suddenly encounter unexpected water deep enough to cause hydroplaning, causing the rear of the car to break loose 1st and an inexperienced / untrained driver to react incorrectly and lose control. 

 

 

I do understand their point, but I prefer to have the better tires on the front myself.



#10 OFFLINE   RubyMax

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Posted 12 May 2016 - 05:37 AM


I do understand their point, but I prefer to have the better tires on the front myself.

 

It's evident why new tires on the rear are best, what are your reasons for new tires on the front?



#11 OFFLINE   dontfret

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Posted 12 May 2016 - 08:30 AM

It's evident why new tires on the rear are best, what are your reasons for new tires on the front?

My logic is to put the new tires in front where they will wear faster, and when they match the tread on the rear then begin  rotations so all four tires will wear out together, then replace all four when any tire hits the wear bars.  To be clear, I will follow this approach only if the current rears are near-new levels of depth, will measure them this weekend.  Even though they are at 28,000 miles, the rears wear MUCH slower than the fronts, especially int he Cmax.



#12 OFFLINE   RubyMax

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Posted 12 May 2016 - 09:12 AM

Thanks, that logic makes sense, once you clarified it.

#13 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 12 May 2016 - 10:56 AM

My logic is to put the new tires in front where they will wear faster, and when they match the tread on the rear then begin  rotations so all four tires will wear out together, then replace all four when any tire hits the wear bars.  To be clear, I will follow this approach only if the current rears are near-new levels of depth, will measure them this weekend.  Even though they are at 28,000 miles, the rears wear MUCH slower than the fronts, especially int he Cmax.

They have slightly used Michelin's Energy Savers on eBay all the time for half price, another possible option. :smile2:

 

Paul 



#14 OFFLINE   dontfret

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Posted 12 May 2016 - 12:54 PM

Not that I disagree with your approach, but it seems that in recent years you will have a hard time getting a tire shop to install the tires with more tread on the front of the car.  Their lawyers have all bought into the contrived scenario of a large sweeping turn where you suddenly encounter unexpected water deep enough to cause hydroplaning, causing the rear of the car to break loose 1st and an inexperienced / untrained driver to react incorrectly and lose control. 

 

 

I do understand their point, but I prefer to have the better tires on the front myself.

Just watched the video - scared the c%@p out of me!!!!!  And BTW, made good sense.



#15 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 12 May 2016 - 05:15 PM

You should realize that this video is the extreme.  When you're driving in rain or snow, you should know your speed and sense when the tires are starting to lose contact with the road.  If at any time the back end feels like its starting to fishtail, you remove power, and if necessary steer into it.  If you want to do a U turn like they are doing in the video, you need to steer away from it and then you'll do that 180 on the road.

 

Always test the conditions (especially in snow) and see your stopping distance, traction, etc.  That doesn't apply to most Californians, but here in the Northeast we are king of that, when I was in LA one and decided to drive to Vegas, up the mountain all of a sudden it was heavy snow, and everyone pulled over.  I maintained my 45mph and keep chugging along.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 12 May 2016 - 05:15 PM.

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#16 OFFLINE   cwstnsko

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Posted 13 May 2016 - 04:34 AM

The situations depicted in the 1st video are very contrived, and they use "professional" drivers who are, no doubt, instructed to drive in a way that reinforces that point they are trying to make. It wouldn't have made much of a video if the driver in the blue car had either applied power, or steered into the skid (limited by the similarly contrived positioning of the other car to limit the ability of the driver to respond properly.)  In order to create the situation in question, they have to have a road with enough curvature fro the rear tire to track in the wake of the water displaced by the front tire rather than follow in it's same track.  In straight line driving, the car with the new tires on the front will be more resistant to hydroplaning since the worn rear tires will follow in the drier track behind the front tire.  The police chase footage is completely irrelevant to the the discussion and is only included to create drama, for all we know from the carefully edited video, the car may have been subjected to a police maneuver designed to crash the car, just before entering the frame.

 

Here is another video that depicts what I believe to be far more common situations that tax the limits of half worn tires on Front wheel drive cars.  It's not a very well controlled test when it comes to the ABS braking portions, but the differences in acceleration an maneuvering are very obvious.

 

 

Personally, I have never driven my C-Max on a high speed, sweeping turn in heavy rain, but I do routinely accelerate, brake and maneuver at low to moderate speeds in slippery conditions.  For my daughter, driving in Seattle, I'm considerably more inclined to follow the advice of the 1st video.  For me, in Manitoba, it's a bit more complex set of considerations

 

The advice in the first video, interpreted in the most literal way, would be to never rotate your tires, since rotating your tires on a FWD car is literally moving the more worn tires to the rear and moving the better tires to the front.


Edited by cwstnsko, 13 May 2016 - 04:36 AM.


#17 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 13 May 2016 - 05:34 AM

The video above is absolutely correct.  I used to put 2 snow tires on the front of my Chevy Citation back in the 80's for winter in Vermont while going to college there.  They were Sears snow tires and the car was front wheel drive, you just point the nose where you wanted to go and step on it and the car would jump and go, the back end will just follow.  Students used to be digging out their cars out of the parking lot in school, I would get in, back up 5 feet and then take off and steer through 1 foot+ of snow tires spinning the whole way (you adjust the throttle so its just right not too fast you know what I mean if you have done it), and plow through the mess all the way to the side roads inside the school where it was plowed already and then I would stop there and get out to brush the snow off my car before going someplace.  

 

Its more important to have good traction on the front so you can steer where you want to go.  Bad tires you see how they can't grip the road to steer the car.  Also on his braking test when it stops snowing and the sun comes out a bit the snow melts from the bottom up and it becomes VERY slippery when you have a wet slushy cover on the bottom covered by snow on top.  That's why its crutial when you're driving in snow to ALWAYS test your surface conditions often to see how much space you need to stop.  You never want to be surprised when you need to stop and find out you need more distance than you expected.

 

I'm still voting for new tires on the front than the scare tactics of the Michelin lady in the first video.  Its more important to have the grip in the front where you power is as well as steering.

 

Rich, I would still put the two new tires on the front, and chances are, because the fronts wear faster than the rears that starting with more tread there by the time they wear down to catch up with the rears all 4 will be worn down to the markers and I'm thinking you wouldn't need to even rotate them, but you can watch the tread depth and if the fronts start to get lower than the rears then rotate them to the back and put the better ones on the front.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 13 May 2016 - 05:38 AM.

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#18 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 13 May 2016 - 07:17 AM

I put new tires on the front as well.

 

BUT....

 

There are HUGE differences in whether we are talking about:

-a couple different pairs of all season tires and not huge differences in tread depth(or one set almost bald) and being used during the summer in less than torrential downpours.

 

or

 

-a couple all season tires on the back and new "real" snow tires on the front of a FWD car and then heading out on to a snow/slushy highway at highway speeds...

 

 

From my personal experience of about 30 years of driving here in upstate NY, if it's not below freezing, I can use just about whatever tire I can think of just about down to being bald and other than major storms (which I only see maybe a few times a year) I don't really have any worries.  They'll be a little more loose on dirt roads, but dirt roads are loose to start with.  On pavement other than huge puddles, I can't really recall ever having a problem.

 

 

Now WINTER...  Yeah, I've done the 2 good tires on the front on my CRX.  It drove great.  Until one time when I was on a slushy highway doing somewhere around 65mph.  Car was moving along just fine and dandy with those front tires gripping and pulling.  

And then it was NOT...  I was doing full rotations.  There was no warning or time to "turn into" or out of said spin.  It was snap oversteer.  

Somehow I managed to not hit any of the reflectors/etc and came to a stop in the median.  And with those nice tires on the front I was able to drive right out.

 

Car and Driver had an article on it, maybe something like 20 years back.  They said that after hours on their controlled skidpad they could have some fun with it and learned the exact moment when the oversteer would happen, but before that they couldn't catch them either.

 

 

So, it's up to you.  I won't worry about it during non winter months, but I will definitely NOT only put 2 snow tires on the front of my vehicle or anything my family would drive.



#19 OFFLINE   dontfret

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Posted 13 May 2016 - 08:04 AM

Thanks everyone for your advice and feedback.  Just measured the tread depth on the tires - approximately 2/32 tread in front (yes, the definition of bald) and about 4/32-5/32 in rear.  Still some mileage left as these start out at 9.5/32, but I'm thinking would it be bettter to either get 4 new  or 2 new of the same Michelin ES A/S and put the new in front (thanks again for the most recent posts on new in front testing).  Probably do all four as most stores and Costco give a discount of $50 - $70 dollars.  Thinking of whether to stay with Michelin ES A/S all around or go with Toyo 225/50r17 toyo versado eco) or Goodyear Assurance Fuel Max or Continental Purecontact ecoplus.  I assume LRR would be best on mileage, still on the fence about run flats.



#20 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 13 May 2016 - 08:59 AM

65mph on the highway in snow cover or slush is way too damn fast, its quite easy to lost control and spin out.  If you're driving nearly that fast, about the most you can move the steering wheel from dead center is 25 degrees either left or right.  You must wait until the car decided to catch a grip and move over, otherwise if you steer even 1/2 of 90 (like 45 degrees) because of non response the car is going to catch and over-steer flying off the road.

 

I drove many many times through any and all snow storms, they never stopped me when I was in college going to go out dancing or going to see my girlfriend, and I learned alot back then and never hit anything thankfully though I have done a 180 on the highway a couple of times way back then.  When that happened I just went with it and stopped facing south on the northbound side, then quickly turn around and get the heck out of the way before someone else comes.  Its basically too much speed and a little bit too much over steer will do it every time.

 

-=>Raja.










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