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Guest Message by DevFuse

Get you C-MAX Energi Registered in the official Ford Authorized Registry. More here.


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Looking for advice on a new purchase


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27 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   Oxbowfarm

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Posted 25 April 2016 - 04:13 AM

Currently a 2010 Prius owner (104K miles, 54.6mpg calculated average, zero issues with the car).  Looking to add a new vehicle to the stable (Prius would be passed on to my son).  Looked at the new Prius and although the ride and handling are improved over the old model IMO it is just too over styled (OK ugly) and over priced (29K for what we would want). 

 

The C-MAX was on our short list but when we found that Ford was offering an $11007 incentive on a lease this vehicle moved to the top of our list.  After a test drive we were very impressed with the ride, handling, power and construction.  These factors have moved this vehicle to the top of our list.  That said I have some concerns that I was hoping this forum could address:

 

- What are the major issues people are seeing with this car?

- Would you consider owning this outside of warranty and trying to put 150-200K on it (looking for something we can pass to our second son in 4-5 years)?

- Would you buy another one?

 

 

Thanks in advance!


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#2 OFFLINE   Tom_NC_1

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Posted 25 April 2016 - 05:08 AM

I've mostly had the car in for service for recalls that were mostly for reprogramming modules. There are few of those now. I have not had any major issues. The biggest issue I have heard of were a few transmission replacements that were all replaced under warrantee. The transmission is covered under the longer hybrid components part of the warrantee.

 

The biggest concern I have with the CMAX is that Ford compromised on cooling the HVB. In hot climates and for users who use a level 2 charger for two or more times per day the HVB can become quite hot and this will degrade its capacity to hold a charge. The pack has a usable capacity of 5.5kWh and due to heat issues the HVB now has a capacity of 4.5kWh. I now am modifying my charging pattern to eliminate charging in the afternoon during hot weather.

 

I did once have a problem where the car would not charge and a few times where the sound was lost in the entertainment system. The sound loss usually corrected itself the next time the car was started. Took the car in for service for the charge problem and they  replaced the 12V battery. I suspect that disconnecting the battery was what fixed the issue and will try that first if it ever happens again.

My audio issues are related to Sync 2 based on the MicroSoft platform. For is now using Sync 3 that is an Apple platform so it will be interesting to see if that takes care of the audio issues.

 

I have only put 36k miles on the car in three years and am very pleased. It will not get the 54.6mpg in Hybrid mode like your Prius nice if is  heavier and  has a higher drag coefficient. In EV it is easy to exceed the 100MPGe. I often see 150 to 170 MPGe results for low speed drives. ( for the purists out there these MPGe numbers do not account for the wall to battery losses of around 20% that results when charging the HVB). 

 

I plan on keeping the car for several more years likely at least to 100k miles and maybe longer. Most of my vehicles over the years have been Fords. As to buying this car again I do not know if I will. I would love to have another PHEV. As choices are increasing I will check all of those available before making a decision. 

 

After everything said, I love this car and do hope keep it for a vey long time.

 

Tom


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#3 OFFLINE   bro1999

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Posted 25 April 2016 - 05:14 AM

Currently a 2010 Prius owner (104K miles, 54.6mpg calculated average, zero issues with the car).  Looking to add a new vehicle to the stable (Prius would be passed on to my son).  Looked at the new Prius and although the ride and handling are improved over the old model IMO it is just too over styled (OK ugly) and over priced (29K for what we would want). 

 

The C-MAX was on our short list but when we found that Ford was offering an $11007 incentive on a lease this vehicle moved to the top of our list.  After a test drive we were very impressed with the ride, handling, power and construction.  These factors have moved this vehicle to the top of our list.  That said I have some concerns that I was hoping this forum could address:

 

- What are the major issues people are seeing with this car?

- Would you consider owning this outside of warranty and trying to put 150-200K on it (looking for something we can pass to our second son in 4-5 years)?

- Would you buy another one?

 

 

Thanks in advance!

 

I leased a 2013 C-Max Energi for 2 years, and I ended up turning it back in. Nothing was really wrong with it, it just turned out I wanted something with more EV range (and the buyout price was way too high as well). So I ended up leasing a cheap '16 Cruze to tide me over until the Bolt EV arrives later this year.

 

My main issues with the C-Max were as follows:

#1: Not enough EV range. Sure, I could pretty much do my 17 mile R/T commute on just the battery, but any additional stops on the way home would result in gas being used. There were times I often wished the C-Max had the range of my Volt.

 

#2: HV battery longevity. During my 2 years, I am fairly certain my C-Max's HV battery had degraded somewhat. I originally was able to drive 5.5/5.6 kWh on a full charge, but noticed towards the end of the lease, I would only get about 5.2/5.3 kWh until the engine came on. I live in MD, which has pretty hot summers, and the lack of active liquid cooling allowed the HV battery to get pretty hot.

There were times during the summer my C-Max's battery would hit the 113F threshold while driving home from work where the engine would come on in order to prevent the battery from getting any hotter (despite having charge left). Extended time at 110+ probably wasn't good for battery health.

Then you toss in the fact Ford hasn't published numbers for battery capacity guarantees...basically only Ford knows how much a battery has to degrade before they will replace it under warranty. Both GM and (eventually) Nissan put out hard numbers on when a battery would be replaced under warranty for degradation.


Edited by bro1999, 25 April 2016 - 05:16 AM.

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#4 OFFLINE   fotomoto

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Posted 25 April 2016 - 05:14 AM

Hello and welcome to the site. :happy feet:

 

Why would you lease if you're considering long term ownership? 

 

I had a 2010 and also have an '06 Prius and agree with your assessment.   Are you looking at the plug-in Energi model (this forum) or the standard hybrid model (this forum: http://fordcmaxhybri...idforum.com/  )?  The cars and the forums look exactly the same.  LOL     As a whole, the hybrid owners tend to drive more miles (more samples there) but we have a few high milers here too.  

 

Overall, the vehicle is reliable.  It has low marks on some reporting sites but if you look deeper you'll see most of those came from buggy software in the infotainment system that for the most part have been eliminated by download upgrades.  The hybrid SE (base model) has had dead 12v battery issues that are nearly non-existent here.  A few have had transmission (Ford designed and built) issues but Ford has been quick to take care of them.  Again, more of a hybrid than an Energi issue.  The Energi has a trans fluid pump that the hybrid doesn't since we tend to drive sooooooo much more with the ICE off.

 

The plug-in ability can decrease fuel usage dramatically.  I typically fillup twice a year since the EV range covers most of my daily usage and I only use gas when I go out of town.

 

Good luck in your search!


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#5 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 25 April 2016 - 05:35 AM

Currently a 2010 Prius owner (104K miles, 54.6mpg calculated average, zero issues with the car).  Looking to add a new vehicle to the stable (Prius would be passed on to my son).  Looked at the new Prius and although the ride and handling are improved over the old model IMO it is just too over styled (OK ugly) and over priced (29K for what we would want). 

 

The C-MAX was on our short list but when we found that Ford was offering an $11007 incentive on a lease this vehicle moved to the top of our list.  After a test drive we were very impressed with the ride, handling, power and construction.  These factors have moved this vehicle to the top of our list.  That said I have some concerns that I was hoping this forum could address:

 

- What are the major issues people are seeing with this car?

- Would you consider owning this outside of warranty and trying to put 150-200K on it (looking for something we can pass to our second son in 4-5 years)?

- Would you buy another one?

 

 

Thanks in advance!

Those are some tough questions as far as I'm concerned...

 

Coming from a 2004 Prius myself I'd say my overall feeling is that Ford is offering more in the vehicle with the compromise being reduced gas economy(EV is fine) and not necessarily getting everything perfect.  But it does seem to work quite well really.

 

#1 - It doesn't seem there are a lot of major issues.  There have been a few people with transmission problems and a few people with reduced battery capacity(that one seems like it might be related to hotter climates).  Neither of those seem to be wide spread.  Otherwise it seems there are just mostly random little things.  On my car my items have been a sunshade switch that was never installed from the factory(best guess).  And a couple glitchy items with the gps, sync, health report, etc.  And it seems in general I wouldn't count on Ford to actually fix the issues you have.  They might, or they might just tell you that things not working is a feature or agree with you that it doesn't work and send you home.  At least that's been my experience and I've read a few other reports of even worse stupidity.

 

#2 - Mine is outside of warranty now.  Well I guess there's still some hybrid/emissions warranty and some Sync warranty but that stuff seems to be sketchy as to what is actually covered from what I've seen.  Boy I hope it holds up that long like my other cars have, but I'm just not as familiar with Fords to guess what the likelihood is of them making that any miles.  For my purposes and this being the lowest mileage car I've had, I would guess that there will be reduced battery capacity by the time that many years roll by.

 

#3 - Really not sure if I'd get another one...  My biggest thing right now is wanting to make my commute on EV.  And my commute is about 26 miles round trip with hills.  Just not happening.  24 miles is almost doable with the cruise set at 25mph and using Neutral downhills.  And don't forget that if you want heat in the winter you'll need to drop your estimates in half.  So, I'd give a hard look at the Volt.  But I do prefer the looks inside and out of the Ford.  If I were going for a new car, I might get a Prius Prime.  Then again, I'd also give serious consideration to a Leaf. Those seem to have some pretty stupidly cheap deals used or new.  But then I'd probably have to work in a 3rd vehicle which brings up new problems...

 

 

I think my feelings for a perfect car are along the line of... that if the C-Max was made by Toyota(then I'd feel more comfortable with reliability), it had the 40+ mile range of the Volt and the gas mileage of the Prius.  

 

Those are really the pieces that bug me as missing.


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#6 OFFLINE   Oxbowfarm

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Posted 25 April 2016 - 07:04 AM

Thanks for all your quick responses.  It sounds like everyone is pretty happy with the vehicle even if it does not cover all your range needs.  We put about 20K a year on the Prius with about 4K of that number covered within EV range and about 9K in pure highway cruising.  The only reason I am considering the lease is that it is the only way to get the 11K incentive.  I would most likely exceed the 15K mileage cap so the vehicle would need to be worth more than the $13,600 residual after 36 months so I would really need to be ready to make a buy out vs. paying 21 cents a mile for the 15K miles I may end up driving. 


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#7 OFFLINE   cwstnsko

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Posted 25 April 2016 - 07:13 AM

Ford does have lease options that go up to 19,500 miles per year if you don't want to worry about paying a penalty or buying the car for more than it's worth at the end of the lease.



#8 OFFLINE   bro1999

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Posted 25 April 2016 - 07:22 AM

Thanks for all your quick responses.  It sounds like everyone is pretty happy with the vehicle even if it does not cover all your range needs.  We put about 20K a year on the Prius with about 4K of that number covered within EV range and about 9K in pure highway cruising.  The only reason I am considering the lease is that it is the only way to get the 11K incentive.  I would most likely exceed the 15K mileage cap so the vehicle would need to be worth more than the $13,600 residual after 36 months so I would really need to be ready to make a buy out vs. paying 21 cents a mile for the 15K miles I may end up driving. 

 

Pretty sure you could get the same discount (or more) with a purchase. Here are the rebates/credits that are being offered:

 

$1,000 - 2016 Ford Select Vehicles Prius and Volt "EV" Competitive Conquest Bonus Cash

  • Customers that currently own or lease any Chevy Volt or Toyota Prius will receive Conquest Cash towards the purchase or lease of an eligible new vehicle.
  • Current lease customers are not required to terminate their lease.

$1,000 - 2016 Ford C-MAX Energi Customer Cash ($2,000 for 2015s)

  • This incentive may not be combined with the following incentives: 2016 Ford C-Max Energi Special Trade-In Assistance Bonus Customer Cash

    Not combinable with some finance incentives.

    See dealer for details. (Expires 7/5/2016)

$1,500 - [Loan] 2016 Ford C-MAX Energi Retail Bonus Customer Cash

  • To qualify, you must finance through the manufacturer.

    This incentive may not be combined with the following incentives: 2016 F-150 SuperCrew XLT with 2.7L EcoBoost engine Special Trade-In Assistance Bonus Customer Cash, 2016 F-150 SuperCrew XLT without 2.7L EcoBoost engine Special Trade-In Assistance Bonus Customer Cash, 2016 Ford C-Max Energi Special Trade-In Assistance Bonus Customer Cash

    Not combinable with some finance incentives. See dealer for details. (Expires 7/5/2016)

     

    $500 college student/graduate/military rebate (may not qualify)

     

    $4,007 Federal EV Tax credit

     

    I found a leftover 2015 in NoVa that is listed for $9,600 off MSRP before the federal tax credit. 2015s are even more discounted than 2016's.

     

    http://www.koonsster...7fb3af65de0.htm

     

    You might not be eligible for all rebates, but probably most of them. If you want to keep it for the long haul, a purchase would likely be better for you than a lease. I do see a $127/month special with $2,499 down (along with TTL) for a 2015 Energi. The $1k Prius incentive would knock the money down to $1,499.

     

    My local dealer is giving a dealer discount of $4,700 on a 2016 Energi BEFORE factory incentives, FWIW. So for a leftover 2015, there could be as much as $9k incentives on the hood (including $4k tax credit) before any dealer discounting, which could up to another $5k. Or up to $14k total off MSRP. That would be without any mileage limits for a purchase.

     

     


Edited by bro1999, 25 April 2016 - 07:36 AM.


#9 OFFLINE   ls973800

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Posted 25 April 2016 - 06:38 PM

On a lease, the money given  is exactly that, money which can be used for the down payment or cap cost reduction.  The money given on a purchase is a credit, meaning it comes off any money you owe for federal income tax.  If you only owe $2000.00, you will only be able to take $2000.00 of the $4007.00 or whatever.  You will "lose" the rest.

 

My lease came with an incentive of $7001.00 to be used towards the cap cost reduction, since the $4007.00 credit is given only on purchased vehicles.


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#10 OFFLINE   rafacq

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Posted 26 April 2016 - 10:15 AM

I intend to keep my CMAX NRG at least until 100k+ miles.

 

In my case, the vehicle MSRP was $35,960. Sale price after Ford, Ford Credit (they gave me a $1K credit to get a 5yr loan/0% interest) & Dealer incentives came out to $28,465  That is a savings of $7,495. 

 

At the time, I qualified for the $4,004 tax credit.  Most people paying over $4k a year in taxes should have no problem getting their salary witholdings refunded due to the credit. I got all of mine back in a check from the IRS.

 

The state of Texas had a grant for purchasing a plug in vehicle (for which the hybrid did not qualify, just the NRG). I received a check from the state of Texas about 10 weeks after I submitted my paperwork.

 

That made my net cost $21,961 (not including TT&L).  Certainly worth purchasing. I did spend $300 extra having my windows tinted.

 

I did pay extra for a 7yr/100k $0 deductible warranty), but Ford also financed it over 5 years 0% interest! 

 

PD. Tried to post sticker and bill of sale totals but system did not let me add images to my post.

 

Update: After 20 months, had to take in my car for service. They kept the car 6 days. Had a loaner because of the extended warranty!  They had to replace the ring light charging assembly.  After driving a Focus for 60 days, boy was I happy to have my NRG back!  I really like this car. My daily commute is 11 miles, so most of my week driving is pure EV.  My current MPG since I purchased the car 102.7mpg - I never have reset the display. With my kind of driving, and the CMAX 20 mile EV range, that beats any PRIUS out there. And the CMAX is fun to drive! And very very quiet!


Edited by rafacq, 26 April 2016 - 10:28 AM.


#11 OFFLINE   PeteNRG

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Posted 24 May 2016 - 12:55 PM

I may end up buying mine due to the mileage. I took a 10k lease so my residual is $14,500 - which I suspect is a little high but given that plus my lease payments over the next 3yrs it would be like buying the car for about $21k total.



#12 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 24 May 2016 - 02:19 PM

I did my deal in VA too - my sticker was $36,900 - after discount I paid $19,207 plus taxes/fees.

 

 

I took a 10k lease so my residual is $14,500 - which I suspect is a little high but given that plus my lease payments over the next 3yrs it would be like buying the car for about $21k total.

 

I don't understand what you're trying to say here in two different spots...did you buy the car for 19,207 or least it?  Maybe you mean you leased it for 1 year with 10k miles allowance and then if you want to buy it after a year you have to pay $14,500 more?

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 24 May 2016 - 02:20 PM.


#13 OFFLINE   bro1999

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 06:28 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't understand what you're trying to say here in two different spots...did you buy the car for 19,207 or least it?  Maybe you mean you leased it for 1 year with 10k miles allowance and then if you want to buy it after a year you have to pay $14,500 more?

 

-=>Raja.

 

Maybe he meant the final price listed in the lease? So after dealer discount and factory incentives, the adjusted final price (capitalized cost) was $19,207?



#14 OFFLINE   PeteNRG

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 07:37 AM

Maybe he meant the final price listed in the lease? So after dealer discount and factory incentives, the adjusted final price (capitalized cost) was $19,207?

 

Yep correct, it was $19,207 plus fees and taxes. I did a lease to get all the discounts etc. If i want to own the car after 3yrs its $14,500 buyout. My payment is $212 a mth for the lease - on a $37k car its pretty good.



#15 OFFLINE   PeteNRG

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 07:41 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't understand what you're trying to say here in two different spots...did you buy the car for 19,207 or least it?  Maybe you mean you leased it for 1 year with 10k miles allowance and then if you want to buy it after a year you have to pay $14,500 more?

 

-=>Raja.

 

Its the same - if you lease or not there is a price for the vehicle after discount, plus tax, plus fees plus any interest (money factor). This is why people who poo poo leases as a waste arent doing the math or seeing the whole picture. For me it was cheaper to lease then buyout than to get a loan and buy the car outright due to the discounts offered on a lease. Another benefit is GAP coverage is provided by the lessee in many cases which can stop you being hosed on diminished value.



#16 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 09:58 AM

Well usually when you lease it, its like a rental.  After the time is up, you have to give up the car.  Well you don't have to, but most people here seem to because the buyout of the lease is more expensive than the car is worth to them.  I haven't seen anybody yet here keep their car after the lease, they all let it go...some regretted it and went back and bought another Energi...

 

So you least it and have a payment for however many months, then you walk away with no car.

 

You say the payment is $212 a month, x 36 months that is $7632.  But what did you have to pay for lease origination and what do you have to pay to close out the lease?  Also what's your mileage limit, 10, 12, or 15k a year?  7632 (not including any opening or closing fees) plus $14,500 buyout doesn't add up to $19207 (almost 3k more) which you say is the same for buy or lease?

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 27 May 2016 - 09:59 AM.


#17 OFFLINE   epic

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Posted 27 May 2016 - 12:54 PM

highly recommend the energy over the tin can .no issues for me in the 40k miles so far.the car is ideal in everyway.average 60 plus mpg every tank 



#18 OFFLINE   PeteNRG

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 11:12 AM

Well usually when you lease it, its like a rental.  After the time is up, you have to give up the car.  Well you don't have to, but most people here seem to because the buyout of the lease is more expensive than the car is worth to them.  I haven't seen anybody yet here keep their car after the lease, they all let it go...some regretted it and went back and bought another Energi...

 

So you least it and have a payment for however many months, then you walk away with no car.

 

You say the payment is $212 a month, x 36 months that is $7632.  But what did you have to pay for lease origination and what do you have to pay to close out the lease?  Also what's your mileage limit, 10, 12, or 15k a year?  7632 (not including any opening or closing fees) plus $14,500 buyout doesn't add up to $19207 (almost 3k more) which you say is the same for buy or lease?

 

-=>Raja.

 

As my post you replied to already stated:

 

$19,207 plus tax / proc fees etc. Add a small amount of interest as the money factor was so low. No buyout fee.

 

Its all the same - whether you buy the car day one for $19207 + tt/fees plus loan apr or pay for 3yrs then buy out the residual and add the 3yr payments. In my case i got better incentives due to lease support so even taking a lease and buying it with a loan the next day was better than buying it with a loan.

 

Leasing can work - it just  a payment method, in all cases you need to do the math, and honestly with cmax residuals leasing works.


Edited by PeteNRG, 06 September 2016 - 11:14 AM.

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#19 OFFLINE   bschwerdt

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Posted 07 September 2016 - 03:37 AM

It took me a little while to understand what PeteNRG is saying, but it's true.  I got a great deal on leasing my CMax, and I fully intend to buy it out at the end of the lease.  The fact that the residual is higher than the car may be worth on the open market is "hidden" to those who bought, but the depreciation is just as real in both cases.

 

The first time I leased a car was my Leaf.  At the time, it was the only way to claim the full $7500 tax credit (since NMAC was claiming it, not me.  they did pass it on to me in full though).

 

If you have doubts about lease + buyout versus buying upfront, ask the dealer for a printout of all costs.  Pull out a calculator and add them up yourself.  It all works out in the end.  A lease is just a way to partially finance the car.  You pay for 3 years' worth of depreciation.  Then you either pay the rest of the value (residual), or walk away with nothing.



#20 OFFLINE   ShoulderThingThatGoesUP

ShoulderThingThatGoesUP

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Posted 07 September 2016 - 06:23 AM

Or you can buy a C-Max that somebody else has leased for half the price of a new one either way.










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