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Guest Message by DevFuse

Get you C-MAX Energi Registered in the official Ford Authorized Registry. More here.


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No 200-mile electric car in Ford's immediate future


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13 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   fotomoto

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 06:49 AM

"Kevin Layden, Ford's director of electrification programs and engineering, said the 100-mile range coming this fall in the 2017 Focus Electric -- up from the 2016 model's 76 miles -- is enough distance to cover the daily commute of most drivers."

 

http://www.autonews....mmediate-future









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#2 OFFLINE   epic

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 04:27 PM

that is what they said about the 76 mile version .enough for the average commute.I guess as they can add capacity the average commute goes up :}}}}


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#3 OFFLINE   komondor

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 05:31 PM

The thing I am concerned about is that in the cold the batteries lose almost 1/2 the range and you may need to run the heat.  To me if they can't compete with the Bolt they are going to become a non player in the EV field.  I can see getting a BOLT a year after they come out once demand starts to come down.



#4 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 20 April 2016 - 04:40 AM

The thing I am concerned about is that in the cold the batteries lose almost 1/2 the range and you may need to run the heat.  To me if they can't compete with the Bolt they are going to become a non player in the EV field.  I can see getting a BOLT a year after they come out once demand starts to come down.

 

Every car is different, but I can't say that I've seen the battery in the C-Max lose half the range in the cold...

 

BUT...

 

That's under some assumptions...  It DOES lose available power...  And if you turn the heat on THEN you've got half the range...

 

 

Your basis though I agree with completely.  Almost all EV's, no matter the range are being sold with a "This range meets xx% of the population's daily commute.

 

Which is true...

 

On a nice day when it's brand new...

 

But if you bought a 2012 leaf with a 76 mile range and you need to travel 30 miles each way to work and you live in Syracuse NY, now it's 2016 and it's winter and you're dealing with sub zero temperatures and plowing through snow AND the battery has lost 10% capacity...  Yeah you're going to have to make some significant alterations to your plans to cope...

 

Given the low prices on used Leaves I'm almost feeling like I should have gotten one of those instead of Max because it would work for me just about all the time... But...  If it was winter and I wanted/needed to use the heat...  It might now make my 26 mile trip...  So that's iffy for a good portion of the year...  But I think I could get by.

 

But I want to make a 60 mile trip up to a race about once a month...  Heck, it's only 51 miles next week...  So, I should be able to make it there no problem, but it's at a park, not at a location with a charger...  at best I'd pretty much have to dedicate another number of hours to hang around while it charges before I could make it home...

 

I can only imagine what anyone from the general public does when they buy an EV that they plan to drive to 75% of it's range every day and lives in a cold climate and finds out the first year that they can't make it...  "What do you mean I can't use the heater if I want to make it work and back?!"



#5 OFFLINE   pumafeet10

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 08:49 AM

thankfully a few days later, ford realized they were full of it and are going to a have a 200 mile range ev to compete with the bolt and model 3.  Not sure that was a good marketing idea to deny it, but ford needs to step up their game, as much as i love our energi, i would love to have a 200 mile ev



#6 OFFLINE   cwstnsko

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Posted 05 May 2016 - 12:03 PM

Based on my research before I bought an EV, and my experience of owning a Focus Electric and a C-Max Energi, the recommendation I give people who ask about buying a BEV for commuting is 1st, ensure that you have the ability to set up for 240V charging at your home.  This is not only your main source of charging, it should be considered the only source of charging that you can rely on. Any other charging you may gain access to should be considered a bonus.  Banking on a device / resource that somebody else owns and is responsible for is recipe for disappointment.  Next, I recommend multiply the advertised range of the BEV by .4 and compare that number to your daily planned round-trip for commuting.  That factor could go up to .5 in mild climates, and down to .3 in harsh climates.  In order to fully enjoy the electric driving experience you should plan to arrive home with at least 30% of the battery left in all but the most abnormal / harshest conditions. Making every trip in constant fear of running out if there is a delay / detour / weather is a stressful way to live.  With the introduction of affordable 200 mile BEVS, my factor of .3 - .5 could probably be adjusted up to .4 - .6, so I would say the a practical limit to a  commute for an EV with 200 miles of estimated range would be about 50 miles each way.

 

For PHEVs, my advice changes a bit.  In most PHEVs you can generally get away with the 120V EVSE, unless it's important to you to be able to pre-condition the car to a fully warm condition.  You can also plan to use public charging and use a much higher percentage of the EV Range since the penalty for abnormal condition / situation is just that you burn a little gas.  If you are one of those people who buys a PHEV then gets stressed every time the ICE runs, then use number closer to the BEV numbers above :-)


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#7 OFFLINE   jdbob

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Posted 05 May 2016 - 01:40 PM

The effect that outside temperature has on range is reduced for cars with larger batteries. Assuming it takes 1kWh to keep your car interior warm as an example, that is going to cut into your total range with a 25kWh battery compared to a 60kWh battery. For a 85kWh Tesla winter might only reduce range by 15% or so.



#8 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 05 May 2016 - 03:04 PM

Maybe... I'd say it depends on your individual circumstances.
If you buy a 200 mile range ev and have a 150 mile round trip before you get a recharge and you want heat on a sub zero F day I think you're still going to have trouble...

If your commute is only 25 miles then you've just got so much more capacity in the first place that it won't matter as much.

The only way I see heat being less percentage used of the battery is if your commute is less percentage of the battery in the first place.

#9 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 05 May 2016 - 03:28 PM

Electric cars, there always seems to be that "range anxiety"...  I was at the EV car week last September in San Diego, I took a test drive in a Fiat EV car, tried to roll up the windows to turn on the AC, it was DAMN hot in San Diego back then, 100F and unusually warm for them, but the lady said NO keep the windows down, I gotta drive it back to X later, in other words the AC was going to kill her range and she perhaps wouldn't make it.

 

On the other hand, I stepped into a Ford Focus EV, the sales guy was very comfortable to be sitting in there with me, he said drive as much as you want, don't go around the block and go back, keep going, I'm enjoying the AC blasting in here!  We ended up taking a 20 minute ride around town, one thing I was disappointed with though is the the L regen in the Focus was very weak compared to our Cmax, it felt MAYBE 10% more regen than D, not much at all.  I expected it to be the same as the Cmax, but it wasn't.

 

-=>Raja.



#10 OFFLINE   RubyMax

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Posted 05 May 2016 - 04:56 PM

the L regen in the Focus was very weak compared to our Cmax, it felt MAYBE 10% more regen than D, not much at all.  I expected it to be the same as the Cmax, but it wasn't.

 

-=>Raja.

 

I'll have to look into that.



#11 OFFLINE   cwstnsko

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Posted 05 May 2016 - 05:28 PM

I've mentioned before that my experience with my 2014 Focus Electric is that the regen in L is similar to the regen in L in my C-Max at low speeds and noticeably stronger than the C-Max at higher speeds.  My guess is that either my Focus regens more effectively that the one Raja drove or my 2015 C-Max regens less effectively than Raja's :-) 



#12 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 05 May 2016 - 05:55 PM

I drove the Ford Focus last year, I would expect that it was a 2015 model.  I have a 2013 Cmax model, and my regen was definitely alot stronger than the Ford Focus.  Is it possible that car was gravely overheated with the 100 degree weather and regen is somehow limited when the car's battery is hot?  Might explain things..

 

-=>Raja.



#13 OFFLINE   cwstnsko

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 04:53 AM

The liquid cooling in the Focus battery kicks in at about 98 degrees, so gravely overheated is not likely to occur, but the regen may be limited if the car is already working to keep the battery from getting hotter.  Since my Focus is in Seattle, I've probably only had the battery get warm enough to engage the cooling on a few occasions, so that may be an element of the difference. 

It is also possible that Ford has "softened" the algorithm for regen a bit year over year since my C-max is a year newer model than my Focus and your C-Max is 2 model years older than the Focus you drove.

 

My suggestion for anybody considering buying either car would be to drive the actual car you are considering, under the same conditions that you plan to use the car in on a daily basis and test the regen in L to see if it meets your expectations. 

I'm happy with the regen in both of my cars under the conditions I drive them in.  It sounds like Raja is happy with the regen in L of his C-Max in the NE, but found the regen in the Focus in the SW to be lacking.  It's an interesting element to consider when matching a plug-in car to the environment / conditions that it will be used in.

 

Reflecting back to the original topic :-)  200 mile cars with 60 kWh batteries are a whole different game when it comes to regen and acceleration.  A 60 kWh battery can provide and absorb much higher levels of energy without risking harm to the battery, so the manufacturers have more freedom to adjust the algorithms to create the most desirable / efficient driving experience.  In our current cars with smallish batteries, there are some hard constraints on how much current can flow in either direction without being detrimental to the longevity of the battery system.



#14 OFFLINE   Levi Smith

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Posted 06 May 2016 - 05:20 AM

I'm still finding some seeming variances in the L mode of my 2013 Energi.  It's mostly the same, but on occasion there have been times when it didn't feel like it was pulling back much and then just a hair of a touch on the brake pedal felt like it almost yanked me out of my seat.  And other times where it feels like a lot of regen almost immediately.

 

My best guesses would be things like allowed amounts of regen as mentioned, or in my 2004 Prius if it was doing regen down a hill while braking and it hit a pothole just enough for a wheel to slip a touch it would drop off most of the regen and engage the friction brakes.  I wonder if Ford does anything similar in any of it's various modes.  I haven't really noticed anything that feels like it.










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