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Energi HV Battery Replaced Under Warranty


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225 replies to this topic

#101 OFFLINE   bro1999

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 06:39 AM

I had a long 15 minute conversation with Ford Customer Service, which I recorded.  I got the representative to state, on record (we were both recording the call), that the battery is warranted for 8 years or 100,000.  I pressed him, warranted to do what - what capacity is it warranted to hold and deliver?  So without a charge capacity specification of any type I am only guaranteed that there will be a battery physically present but it won't hold a charge?

 

 He finally replied, "unfortunately the warrantee is stating a specific time and mileage.  Now like I said sir, and the reason I am being so adamant about this sir is because you are definitely not the first person contacting me here and asking me that type of information.  That information is proprietary sir and cannot be divulged to customers".

 

So Ford is on record that the warranty is time and distance, but offers no specification on which to base a warranty claim.

 

Well that's a bunch of BS. 









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#102 OFFLINE   David Burnett

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 08:41 AM

How can you keep warranty information proprietary???

 

I hope their call center gets slammed with phone calls for this.



#103 OFFLINE   dontfret

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 05:59 PM

I was told I was one of many that had called the call center, my rep (Earl) had the prepared statement and nothing further.  Hitting them is useless.

 

:happy feet: Feel free to contact the paralegal Karla at the law firm that may form a class action (Capstone, they got the Nissan Leaf owners settlement) .  They are still researching whether such a case is possible, would be nice for more from here to join in.  They cannot recruit clients or advertise, but you can call her 310-712-8142 to volunteer your information.  or email at karla.Rubalcava@capstonelawyers.com   All Energi owners, Cmax or Fusion should volunteer.


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#104 OFFLINE   David Burnett

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Posted 02 October 2016 - 02:41 PM

You forget to mention this is free, they work "probono"

 

I was told I was one of many that had called the call center, my rep (Earl) had the prepared statement and nothing further.  Hitting them is useless.

 

:happy feet: Feel free to contact the paralegal Karla at the law firm that may form a class action (Capstone, they got the Nissan Leaf owners settlement) .  They are still researching whether such a case is possible, would be nice for more from here to join in.  They cannot recruit clients or advertise, but you can call her 310-712-8142 to volunteer your information.  or email at karla.Rubalcava@capstonelawyers.com   All Energi owners, Cmax or Fusion should volunteer.



#105 OFFLINE   dontfret

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Posted 02 October 2016 - 03:35 PM

You forget to mention this is free, they work "probono"could be a class!!!

Well, don't confuse pro bono, which is for free and you get the settlement if they win, with on contingency (which is what they will do if they decide to take the case) which means we don't pay them for their time and effort, they take a cut of the settlement if they win.  They might get around 30-40% of the settlement.  You and I might get the cost of battery replacement and perhaps something extra for punitive damages.  Lets say (as withy Nissan Leaf) the settlement is valued at $10,000,000 for the entire class.  They would get perhaps $3,000,000.  I'm just guessing at what reparations and contingency fees are.  If you want to see how this works, check the last scene of  "Erin Brockovich."   :lol:  Having said that, I certainly hope they see this as a worthwhile class action and DO take the case on.  Everybody, send Karla your name so they can see this is a possible class action.

 

 



#106 OFFLINE   zoombabe

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 09:05 AM

Similar boat here. Takes 14+ hours for a full charge and only 9-11 miles at that.

 

I have 65k miles on my energi and over time the max range has slowly but surely started petering down. When I first got it, a full charge would show a range of 23 miles (highest I have seen it) but mostly around the 19-20 mile range. 4 years later today, the max range shows as anywhere between 9-11 miles. Whaaat happened???

 

Also, on a 240v charger, it used to take 1.5-2.5 hours for a full charge. Now, I leave it plugged in overnight and still 14 hours later it shows "75% charge". Charging around 4 hours gives me less than 20% charge. What is going on here? Is this a dud? 

 

The dealer says he can look at it but it will cost me $200 to run diagnostics (even though I have Ford Premium ESP. Worth it? Sounds like not based on comments here. 

 

BTW, how do I get the kwh numbers? MFM app doesnt show it unless I am missing something



#107 OFFLINE   altabrig

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 04:21 PM

Down below 4 kWH capacity after 43k miles. Yep I try to drive as much as possible without using the ICE.

#108 OFFLINE   dontfret

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 04:56 AM

To all Interested - Capstone is moving forward with filing a class action lawsuit on behalf of the Cmax Energi owners to force Ford to state and support a battery warranty level.  I have been asked and declined to serve as lead plaintiff - they need 'a face' of the lawsuit.  If you are interested in joining the suit or serving as lead plaintiff, contact Karla at Capstone.  The lead plaintiff should be well versed in what their car has been producing, and have kept records of initial and current battery conditions and any interactions with Ford service or Customer Service.  Capstone won a similar case for the Nissan Leaf, resulting in a $11,000,000 settlement and replacement of batteries.  


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#109 OFFLINE   bob_ninja

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 06:14 AM

I just bought CMax Energi. I have 40K km on 1.5 yr Kia Soul EV, so have some experience with pure EV.

 

I think the major issue/mistake/misunderstanding here is what plugin cars like CMax/Fusion Energi is and is NOT:

- Energi is NOT pure EV

- Energi is hybrid

 

Treating them like an EV and trying to avoid ICE activation is the main reason for most of the degradation issues. There are other factors that you cannot easily deal with it, in particular location. Leaf owners have documented degradation in different regions and it is VERY clear that it is much worse in warmer climates. Most of the problems were in hot states like Florida/Cali/Arizona. Not much you can do about that except look for liquid cooled cars.

 

Back to EV mode.

 

The common power term used is "C" which is relative to battery size.

 

Example:

Soul EV usable 27 kWh, so 1C = 27 kW

CMax usable 5.5 kWh, 1C = 5.5 kW

 

In  GENERAL (to avoid complications regarding different LiIon chemistries, etc.) for LiIon batteries:

0 - 0.5C = easy, low load

0.5C - 1C = normal, moderate load

1C - 3C = high load

3+C = very high load

 

Keep in mind this is approximate scale, not meant to be super accurate, so don't worry about exact numbers!

 

Low speed driving in EVs is no big deal, so nothing to talk about. Instead what happens at 80 km/h and higher (over 45 mph).

Soul has real-time motor power readings, so I can tell you typical power. Although keep in mind its CD sucks, so CMax would usually pull bit less power due less air resistance.

 

When I am cruising around 90ish km/h (50ish mph) I can see power in the 10 kW to 15 kW range.

Now for Soul EV it is:

10 / 27 = 0.4C

15 / 27 = 0.6C

 

So using the scale we can say that Soul EV can maintain this cruising speed without breaking a sweat, pretty easy no issues. Indeed after 40K my degradation is less that 10%; didn't test it but from all readouts I don't see any significant range loss.

 

Applying the same to CMax:

 

10 / 5.5 = 1.8C

15 / 5.5 = 2.7C

 

Now you can see clearly that CMax battery has to work MUCH harder in EV mode to maintain this highway cruising speed. Keep in mind this fairly slow for highway, so our perception is that car is not working super hard. In fact the battery is working hard! At the top range you are actually coming close to very high load. If you add heat (warmer climate) and heavy reliance on EV mode you are pretty much creating perfect conditions for accelerated degradation.

 

Now other cars can do this bit better because they have liquid cooling and/or much higher capacity battery that can handle this load easily. Say Tesla 60 kWh pack would be 15 / 60 = 0.25C = super easy load

 

The mistake that Ford made here is to allow CMax EV mode to draw 10+ kW sustained. 10 kW burst would be fine for 10-20 seconds, but I would not allow it for a longer period. The battery is too small to handle it and avoid degradation.

 

Now we can be angry at Ford but to be fair most car companies are still learning and they are improving (slowly) over time.

 

In practice what it means for us is that you want to use EV Later mode any time you are going over 80 km/h, especially in summer.

 

The other point was brought up earlier and again is super important to understand:

 

Soul EV average 5 km/kWh, 40K km / 5 = 8K kWh / 27 kWh = 300 cycles (approximate)

CMax average 6 km/kWh, 40K km / 6 = 6666 kWh / 5.5 kWh = 1212 cyclec (approximate)

 

So for the same distance (40K km) which we generally think of as normal, no big deal, we can clearly see that CMax has to use A LOT more cycles than a pure EV. This is huge difference. 300 cycles is no big deal and I don't have much degradation. Teslas and other big pack EVs have even less cycles.

 

However for this small pack using EV mode only (mostly) you need a huge number of cycles. So it no surprise to see so much degradation. Again this is not EV car and should NOT be driver like EV car.

 

For all EVs one notable difference is that efficiency jumps a lot at lower speeds. For instance, you can get as much as 10 km/kWh at lower speeds say 40-50 km/h and it drops down to 3-4 kWh at higher speeds. In terms of cycles it means that battery has to be half as much cycles for a given distance as long as you limit its use to lower speeds.

 

In summary, to reduce degradation:

1) Limit EV use to low power levels (below 10 kW)

a) low speed driving

b) coasting at higher speed (glide)

c) always push ICE to handle acceleration as much as possible

2) Manage heat

a) avoid charging on hot days, charge at night

b) rest period between trips to allow cooling

etc.

 

For CMax I see EV mode as something to use on local roads with many stop signs and traffic lights. Also it can be useful for gliding. However on all 80 km/h and higher limit roads I am looking to use EV Later mode.

 

GL


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#110 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 06:31 AM

I totally agree with the above, and also tell people to drive the battery slow at 50mph or less, no more.  Better to drain it in 1 hour than 15 mintues on the highway going 110km/hr.

 

Great post!

 

-=>Raja.



#111 OFFLINE   altabrig

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 07:57 AM

Down to 3.7 kWH capacity on the HVB after 4.5 years and 45k total miles.

#112 OFFLINE   jdbob

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 08:55 AM

"Treating them like an EV and trying to avoid ICE activation is the main reason for most of the degradation issues."

 

The problem is that Ford never advised their customers about that and they didn't implement any reasonable limits in software to prevent sustained high power draw. I run in EV Now unless I leave town on a trip and live in the foothills about 600 feet above downtown where I shop. So getting back up the hill involves several minutes of 20-30kW draw. We can only hope that at some point someone starts selling rebuilt battery systems, hopefully with more capacity, 10kWh would fit into the same space using modern batteries.


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#113 OFFLINE   cr08

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 09:46 AM

That's been one of my concerns is why they didn't put in some firmer restriction on the EV mode. I've brought it up in another thread where I've mentioned the idea of maybe restricting it to 55mph and going to hybrid mode above that. I think basing off actual sustained kw draw would be even better. After sustaining xx kw draw for yy seconds/minutes, cut over to hybrid mode and monitor overal drivetrain load thereafter.

 

Running EV Later on highway trips has been how I've always driven mine just because it made sense. My shortest regular highway trip is to my brother's place which is about 7mi of 60mph+ freeway each way. Haven't even tried it on EV Now but I can imagine even with HVAC off just round trip would eat through a full charge. That and common sense dictates the ICE is going to be most efficient cruising along at that speed. So that's been a cemented routine in my brain. Switch to EV Later on the hwy, Go Auto/EV Now around town <50mph.

 

I am anxious to see rebuilt packs come to fruition for our cars even if it is with the same capacity/battery tech. I'd also love to see someone consider trying to retrofit a proper cooling solution in the pack if they really start tearing into these.



#114 OFFLINE   fotomoto

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 12:11 PM

I recently did a 2,000+ road trip with no chance to charge and ran out of EV early on during the first day so it was in hybrid mode nearly the whole way.  The battery would get up to and remain around 100-103f for the entire day.  None of the (good) tips above would have helped nor should the average owner be expected to know and abide by them.

 

Toyota has an issue with oil burners in higher mileage Pri.  They came up with a verifiable limit on usage: 1 qt per 600 miles.  That's crazy high but at least owners know where the line is drawn.  Toyota also has greatly extended warranties on known trouble spots (inverters, pumps, brake actuators) and even goodwills batteries that are close but past limits.  So far Ford has only done this with the MFT disaster.

 

How :ford: handles this will GREATLY determine my future buying decisions.  :spend:


Edited by fotomoto, 27 July 2017 - 12:12 PM.


#115 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 01:19 PM

Listen guys, Ford Used to have it limited to 62mph in EV mode but later relaxed that limit to 85mph as us Americans like power and speed.

 

I've pretty much abide by that and after 4 years and 73476 miles my battery was still putting out 5.3kwh.   Over 40k miles were from the battery.  

 

Just recently I've started over with a new 2017 Cmax, and now I'm being even more careful with it, today for example I started the engine when I was on a country road the presented me with a long uphill section.  In the past I'd remain 100% EV but climbing a mountain with the battery tends to take 3 miles off range for every mile to travel if not worse and what for?  I did buy an engine too with the car and I'm not going to save the engine just to use the battery.  If I don't climb mountains with the battery, the EV range per charge will be in the mid 30's for sure.

 

-=>Raja.



#116 OFFLINE   sporkinum

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 05:58 PM

Nice to hear these things before I have much use on the car. I am at 19k, and bought it with 14k in december. I am ev now around town, which is most of the time, but when I leave town, always ev later.



#117 OFFLINE   bob_ninja

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Posted 28 July 2017 - 03:49 AM

Yes, communication from all car companies can be a problem. I agree Ford could have explained/communicated better.

Even Tesla got into some hot waters with their fast chargers and limits. Tesla marketing would tell customers use fast chargers all the time, then engineers implemented some counters and limit reductions.

 

It is unfortunate that ford increased the speed limit. However, the limit is not speed! As long as you are slowly bleeding speed, you can coast on just 5 kW while gliding from say 60 mph down to 50 mph. The key limit would be power, so in this case I would limit to 8 kW sustained.

 

I guess Ford chose to give us more freedom/choice. There are MANY examples of the opposite when a company limits choice and customers complain about those limits. I actually do like this setup as it allows electric motor to temporarily go higher to 10 kW or higher in order to remain in EV mode. In essence we/drivers are more in control and can flip the mode to increase/reduce power limit before ICE kicks in.

 

Indeed Ford didn't explain any of this. I am sure they are afraid of scaring less technical customers. It is unfortunate that car companies don't publish the "advanced" manual, practice common to high tech, like when you buy database system there are all kinds of manuals from novice to advanced. There should be "advanced" manuals for cars so that it can explain these things for customers who are not afraid to delve deeper.

 

Speaking of this, what is the scale on Empower/Engage? Trying to figure out if ticks are 5 or 10 kW increments.

 

And yes, in summer if you can find shade do park under some sort of cover. For cooling, actually my Soul EV battery fan is rarely active, and I also used Level 3 chargers. In this respect I find Ford is fairly careful. My 2017 CMax activates fan as soon as I plugin to charge. And I do give car 1-2 hours to cool after a trip.

 

Final note.

 

For those of you that are interested in using EV mode a lot, you really need to find a car with a larger battery, around 15 kWh or more. I know there is very limited choice and prices are high so ....

For me at the current gas prices I see no reason why I should avoid using ICE.



#118 OFFLINE   sporkinum

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Posted 28 July 2017 - 10:29 AM

 

 

Final note.

 

For those of you that are interested in using EV mode a lot, you really need to find a car with a larger battery, around 15 kWh or more. I know there is very limited choice and prices are high so ....

For me at the current gas prices I see no reason why I should avoid using ICE.

Our local electric utility has a deal for $10k off a new Nissan Leaf. The new Leaf has a 30kw lithium ion pack and a 100 mile range. With the discount they would be $20k-$26k, not counting any tax incentives.

 

We live in a rural area, so a Leaf would not be a good option for us. All our trips in town are 5 miles or less, so the C-Max works great. On the highway I'll switch to EV-Later. It's a shame they couldn't set up the GPS/Nav to switch modes based on geo-fencing. It would save me having to remember to switch when I leave town.



#119 OFFLINE   Tom_NC_1

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Posted 28 July 2017 - 03:27 PM

I recently did a 2,000+ road trip with no chance to charge and ran out of EV early on during the first day so it was in hybrid mode nearly the whole way.  The battery would get up to and remain around 100-103f for the entire day.  None of the (good) tips above would have helped nor should the average owner be expected to know and abide by them.

 

Toyota has an issue with oil burners in higher mileage Pri.  They came up with a verifiable limit on usage: 1 qt per 600 miles.  That's crazy high but at least owners know where the line is drawn.  Toyota also has greatly extended warranties on known trouble spots (inverters, pumps, brake actuators) and even goodwills batteries that are close but past limits.  So far Ford has only done this with the MFT disaster.

 

How :ford: handles this will GREATLY determine my future buying decisions.  :spend:

 

I also observed the HVB temp reaching 102ºf after a 500 mile trip starting with a full HVB and driving mostly Hybrid. It was staying around 96ºf when the outside temperature was in the mid 70s. On arriving  home the outside temp was about 88ºf and the HVB had climbed to 102 the last 2 EV miles were used to finish depleting the HVB. On my normal drives when the outside temperature gets above 80ºf, I limit to no more than 1 charge per day to prevent the pack from overheating. The the outside temp is 90ºf of higher I stop charging altogether and drive as Hybrid only.

 

Tom



#120 OFFLINE   bob_ninja

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Posted 31 July 2017 - 05:33 AM

Regarding the temp, one important factory to keep in mind.

As battery gets depleted and voltage drops then car has to pull more Amps for the same power, which in turn generates more heat.

Example:

 

4.1V @ 4.1W = 1A

3.6V @ 4.1W = 1.14A

 

Not a huge difference but clearly more current is flowing through wires.

So now in summer if you are coming home on a almost empty battery which is already hot and you put load on it then it will pull more current and heat up more. For that reason I try not to arrive home with empty battery. Just before home I have a hill to climb and make sure to activate the engine for that last high load span. Once I am in residential area low speed limit then I switch back to EV.


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