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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Energi HV Battery Replaced Under Warranty


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134 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   bsheaffer

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Posted 09 September 2016 - 12:49 PM

I've dropped to a max of 4.0 kwhr - so from 4.3 when I noticed it in December 2015 to 4.0 by end of August. But hey, it shaves about 2 minutes more off the charging time.

 

Ford Central sent me right back to the dealer with "we cant authorize any tests without a request from the service manager". So the dealership sent me to Ford and Ford sent me right back. The dealership doesn't know what to ask for....

 

So, back I go.









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#22 OFFLINE   David Burnett

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Posted 09 September 2016 - 01:01 PM

I've dropped to a max of 4.0 kwhr - so from 4.3 when I noticed it in December 2015 to 4.0 by end of August. But hey, it shaves about 2 minutes more off the charging time.

 

Ford Central sent me right back to the dealer with "we cant authorize any tests without a request from the service manager". So the dealership sent me to Ford and Ford sent me right back. The dealership doesn't know what to ask for....

 

So, back I go.

Yeah this is some BS.



#23 OFFLINE   jdbob

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Posted 09 September 2016 - 04:39 PM

Will be interesting to see how this works out. Ford claimed they knew what they are doing by doing extensive tests. The software in the car should have protected the battery no matter the usage scenarios. The user manual talks about "Value Charge" but only in the context of saving on your power bill, nothing there about needed to use it preserve the battery. And no way to terminate the charge at less than 95% actual state of charge.

 

Either they screwed up the battery management system or we are just talking about some defective parts. In either case it's going to be rough going for the first people to bring up the loss in battery capacity.



#24 OFFLINE   dontfret

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Posted 09 September 2016 - 04:52 PM

Based on mipmapped 'success' I began the same process with my local Ford service group.  Printed out all of mipmapped's thread entries, along with my own average 4.1 kwh out of the plug in portion.  Ford Service ordered several tests.  I got a hold of the test requests, which demanded PID readings at 100, 50 and 25% charge.  Most interesting was the BAT-TO-EMPTY-EST which reads out the capacity of the entire battery pack (should be 7.3 kwh for a like new battery), and using my own reader I read 5.3.  Now Ford Service is reviewing the data to advise our service manager what to authorize.  I hope to discover what Ford will say the expected degradation is.


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#25 OFFLINE   Tom_NC_1

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Posted 10 September 2016 - 04:58 AM

I set up an xgauge for my Scangauge II using the Energy to Empty PID and found that with a full charge this xgauge shows 6.54. This was promising so checking the value for a discharged HVB showed showed 1.21. The difference was indicating 5.33. This result was disappointing as my actual HVB capacity was no more than 4.5. It would be interesting to know what a full charge would indicate on a new HVB. 

 

If anyone is interested in testing this xgauge here is the formula I worked out with assistance from Linear Logic.

Energy To Empty (Estimated) (kWh)

TXD: 07E4224848

RXF: 046245480648

RXD: 3010

MTH: 000100050000

NAM: kWe

 

I was also cautioned by the Linear logic Engineer who helped me with programing this xgauge about this value only being an estimated value. 

 

My hope was that it would help document the lost capacity but in the end that did not seem to be the case.

 

Tom


Edited by Tom_NC_1, 11 September 2016 - 02:27 PM.

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#26 OFFLINE   David Burnett

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Posted 10 September 2016 - 11:36 AM

Makes me wonder if it's not the battery but something else and ford engineers don't know what it is.

#27 OFFLINE   mipmapped

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Posted 10 September 2016 - 11:54 AM

Makes me wonder if it's not the battery but something else and ford engineers don't know what it is.


But a new battery does fix the issue...

Edited by mipmapped, 10 September 2016 - 11:55 AM.

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#28 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 11 September 2016 - 01:38 PM

I was also cautioned by the Linear logic Engineer who helped me with programing this xgauge about this value only being an estimated value. 

You are correct that this is an estimated value. The car calculates it based on the HVB voltage. It then tracks current in & out to estimate that value as you drive. When the car is parked & the HVB is able to rest, the car can recalculate a more accurate value. In my Focus Electric it would estimate about 2-3 kWh more than was actually available for discharge as my HVB aged and lost capacity. I haven't done enough driving of my parents' C-Max Energi to know if the Energi also overestimates this value by 15% or more like the Focus did.



#29 OFFLINE   cwstnsko

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Posted 12 September 2016 - 07:27 AM

I set up an xgauge for my Scangauge II using the Energy to Empty PID and found that with a full charge this xgauge shows 6.54. This was promising so checking the value for a discharged HVB showed showed 1.21. The difference was indicating 5.33. This result was disappointing as my actual HVB capacity was no more than 4.5. It would be interesting to know what a full charge would indicate on a new HVB. 

 

If anyone is interested in testing this xgauge here is the formula I worked out with assistance from Linear Logic.

Energy To Empty (Estimated) (kWh)

TXD: 07E4224848

RXF: 046245480648

RXD: 3010

MTH: 000100050000

NAM: kWe

 

I was also cautioned by the Linear logic Engineer who helped me with programing this xgauge about this value only being an estimated value. 

 

My hope was that it would help document the lost capacity but in the end that did not seem to be the case.

 

Tom

 

If anyone is interested in trying this in Torque Pro, the following Values should work.

 

OBD2 Mode and PID: 224848

Long Name: Energy to Empty

Short Name: NRG2MT

Min Value: 0

Max Value: 10

Scale Factor: 1

Unit Type: kWh

Equation: (A*256+B)/500

OBD Header: 7E4

 

Disclaimer: I haven't tried it yet, I just "converted" it.  I'll try it out this afternoon and report back.


Edited by cwstnsko, 12 September 2016 - 07:29 AM.


#30 OFFLINE   cwstnsko

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Posted 12 September 2016 - 05:36 PM

I put this into Torque Pro and it seems to be reporting a logical number. I was showing 3.2 kWh E2E at 30% HVB. It's not necessary t put in the OBD header.

I'll watch it during my driving tomorrow and verify that it seems to report properly across a range of charge levels

 

Update: This morning the Energy to Empty PID reported 7.11 kWh at 98.7% State of Charge (OBD SoC, not the Leaf screen).  On my drive to work, it dropped to 4.50 kWh E2E which is right in line with my normal kWh used.


Edited by cwstnsko, 13 September 2016 - 12:30 PM.


#31 OFFLINE   David Burnett

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Posted 13 September 2016 - 03:12 PM

Update:
Today the dealer called and told me ford has a battery team but they only work on Thursday and they will come inspect my car on Thursday. They have had the car 1 week today and he said they have sent ford a bunch of data.

Edited by David Burnett, 13 September 2016 - 03:12 PM.


#32 OFFLINE   dontfret

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Posted 15 September 2016 - 11:05 AM

I put this into Torque Pro and it seems to be reporting a logical number. I was showing 3.2 kWh E2E at 30% HVB. It's not necessary t put in the OBD header.

I'll watch it during my driving tomorrow and verify that it seems to report properly across a range of charge levels

 

Update: This morning the Energy to Empty PID reported 7.11 kWh at 98.7% State of Charge (OBD SoC, not the Leaf screen).  On my drive to work, it dropped to 4.50 kWh E2E which is right in line with my normal kWh used.

 

If you want an independent verification, I downloaded the free demo FORScan for android, it already has the PID for BAT_TO_EMPTY_ESTIM in it.  Demo just reads one PID at a time, mine was 5.35 for a full charge. :( I'll try loading your PID equation in TorquePro and report the comparison.



#33 OFFLINE   dontfret

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Posted 15 September 2016 - 01:02 PM

My initial adventure with Ford just ended with their telling my service manager the battery degradation I experienced is within "normal wear and tear" and not justified for replacement under warranty.  But they have not stated what the range of 'normal' is.  The service manager will make copies of the PIDs as they measured it available to me, but the correspondence with Ford.  He did share my numbers for BAT_TO_EMPTY_ESTIM are similar to theirs.  They told him to tell the customer to read the warranty and the section in the owner's manual how to best preserve battery life.  He suggested I escalate through Ford Customer Service.  I told him I know a Warranty Lemon lawyer and know a several Cmax NRG owners through this forum that might like to join me - FYI, this same thing of not declaring what 'normal' battery degradation is led a class action suit against Nissan Leaf which ended up replacing MANY battery packs.  I realize that a total EV car is different that our PHEV (we at least can run hybrid after the plug in portion is gone), but still, if I wanted a Cmax Hybrid I would have bought a CMax hybrid!!  Still can't complain, the tax rebates almost covered the upcharge from Hybrid to NRG, and the first 3 years of savings and HOV lane stickers still made this a valid purchase for me...


Edited by dontfret, 15 September 2016 - 01:07 PM.

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#34 OFFLINE   David Burnett

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Posted 15 September 2016 - 06:29 PM

How many miles are on your car?  I would call the ford hotline and threaten them with the lawyer (the ford dealership wouldn't care) and say you are also going to write to your friends at the EPA to expose their fraudulent advertising information.



#35 OFFLINE   David Burnett

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 02:39 PM

I just got the same response "expected, normal wear and tear".  I called the customer service hotline and they registered a formal complaint.  I asked if anyone would call me back, he said "oh no, you will probably see it on the news." I was like, why don't you just say nobody is going to call back.

 

I just emailed the EPA as well as the law firm that prosecuted the Nissan Leaf case to let them know they could easily win this case as well.



#36 OFFLINE   cmwv

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 04:13 PM

Just took my Energi into Ford dealer for same deteriorating battery problem; I'm consistently getting 4.2 kwh when I exhaust the battery completely. Technician checked and got problem indications for the battery cooling system. They took the whole back end around the battery apart, at my expense of course, since cooling system is not covered by the 100,000 mile warranty. They did find the remains of a small rodent of some kind. This exercise "cleared the codes" but did nothing to improve battery performance. Cost to me for this was $478. Dealer says Ford is resisting battery replacement. No final word yet, says the service desk guy. Service manager is supposedly still talking to Ford. This is the third major issue with this car in the three years, 82,000 miles I've had it. Each time I've been stuck without my car for 6 or 7 days. I'm pretty disappointed. 



#37 OFFLINE   JeanLucBlue

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 04:16 PM

Hey guys, very Interesting reading about this problem. I have 2013 NRG and only 24,000 miles on it. From what I am reading, it appears this issue is appearing on cars with much more mileage, hence more charging up of the battery. But, I am a simple person and reading thru the string of comments, I cannot figure out what is the simple way of testing this. If age/use/recharge of the battery is the problem, i may not see a problem, but would like to keep an eye on it. How can I go about this?

 

Thanks!



#38 ONLINE   rbort

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 05:19 PM

First of all, there is always going to be wear and tear on the battery, but depending on how you treat the battery, there could be more excessive wear and tear that many are seeing here now.  I've been trying to preach how to take care of the battery for the last 2+ years, and many at the time discarded what I said and decided that Ford should have designed everything perfectly and that no worries just plug it in all the time so its always ready to go.  The trouble is, some people went beyond the car's design and intended use by trying to not use the engine at all which aggravated the issue even more.  

 

Well unfortunately and sadly many of you have managed to damage the battery, most recently my buddy Ansy, even though I've told him stuff he chose to ignore it and always plugged in the car, sometimes driving on the highway at 70mph when he was late to work this year (and I told him don't do this start the engine), plus charging in the heat so he could try to always go on battery.  Well that's all water under the bridge now, but my problem with this is that it is unlikely and not economically feasible for Ford to replace everyone's battery.  Sure I would love to get mine replaced as well, and conceivably I could damage it on purpose to get that done, but is it really fair to Ford?  I don't think so...You guys may be pushing Ford out of business if they had to replace all the batteries free for everyone.

 

Just thinking out loud here, what's your opinion about this?

 

-=>Raja.



#39 OFFLINE   jdbob

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Posted 19 September 2016 - 06:26 PM

First of all, there is always going to be wear and tear on the battery, but depending on how you treat the battery, there could be more excessive wear and tear that many are seeing here now.  I've been trying to preach how to take care of the battery for the last 2+ years, and many at the time discarded what I said and decided that Ford should have designed everything perfectly and that no worries just plug it in all the time so its always ready to go.  The trouble is, some people went beyond the car's design and intended use by trying to not use the engine at all which aggravated the issue even more.  

 

Well unfortunately and sadly many of you have managed to damage the battery, most recently my buddy Ansy, even though I've told him stuff he chose to ignore it and always plugged in the car, sometimes driving on the highway at 70mph when he was late to work this year (and I told him don't do this start the engine), plus charging in the heat so he could try to always go on battery.  Well that's all water under the bridge now, but my problem with this is that it is unlikely and not economically feasible for Ford to replace everyone's battery.  Sure I would love to get mine replaced as well, and conceivably I could damage it on purpose to get that done, but is it really fair to Ford?  I don't think so...You guys may be pushing Ford out of business if they had to replace all the batteries free for everyone.

 

Just thinking out loud here, what's your opinion about this?

 

-=>Raja.

 

It was Ford's responsibility to design the software so that you couldn't damage the battery to this extent regardless of your driving habits. They didn't make available any tools to help with this, except maybe value charge, but even in that case the user manual doesn't say anything about prevent capacity loss, only using value charge as a way to save money.

 

On a Tesla the charging settings recommend charging up to between 50% and 80% for daily use, only going above that if you need to for a trip. Ours will always charge to 95% even if you don't need it to. If charging everyday to 95% isn't good for the battery, Ford should have made a way to avoid it.



#40 OFFLINE   David Burnett

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Posted 20 September 2016 - 02:06 AM

Ford has billions of dollars in reserve and the other manufactures have no problems affording to replace batteries. All the other manufactures have guarantees that they actually honor. The cost of the batteries is also under $2000 as reported by GM. I never read your tips about battery charging and it likely wouldn't have helped as its always hot here in Florida.








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