237 replies to this topic

[rbort]

Damn Paul:

 

I've been doing it for 30yrs/ 1 million mi. and no accidents.

 

So now I'm going to have to subtract 5mpg from all your fuelly stats to see the real numbers you get in your hybrid as you draft all the time!!  What's your average now, like 53 and climbing?  I guess its really more like 48 and climbing for people who don't draft?    

 

-=>Raja.

[cr08]

Drafting seems to have insane mileage increases on this car. A few months back I had to follow my mother who was driving a shuttle bus for work (One way, drop it off, head back. I was her ride back.). About 2.5 hours all highway. Kept a decent distance but stayed behind and averaged 65-70mph. I remember my trip mileage ended up being around 55mpg. Trip back under same conditions sans drafting I think it was in the 43-45 range. No fancy hypermiling tricks otherwise.

[rbort]

Yes, there is alot less headwind then when you draft.

 

-=>Raja.

[ptjones]

 

Damn Paul:
 
 
So now I'm going to have to subtract 5mpg from all your fuelly stats to see the real numbers you get in your hybrid as you draft all the time!!  What's your average now, like 53 and climbing?  I guess its really more like 48 and climbing for people who don't draft?    
 
-=>Raja.

 
I know you are only kidding, but practically speaking I only draft on the FWY and I'm doing good to do it half the time. First you have to find a big vehicle going the speed you want to go and then you are lucky if they stay on the Fwy more than an hour so you end up searching again. I don't draft in the rain for obvious reasons. Wind direction/speed is the big factor on fuel economy with drafting. I have gotten 50 mpg going 80 mph driving east from El Paso for 160 mi. with 35mph tail wind, drafting may only get you 1 mpg. Your effective wind speed is only 35-45 mph. Going in reverse going 65 mph with 35 mph head wind your wind drag is 100 mph so drafting may help you by 5-6 mpg.

Paul

[rbort]

Yes Paul you know I'm not going to take away your achievements, it just sounded funny so I had to write it 

I know what you mean its hard to find a truck going the right speed, and even if you do they lose speed up hills actually that's when my chance is to pass them at 65mph in CC.

 

-=>Raja.

[ptjones]

Yes Paul you know I'm not going to take away your achievements, it just sounded funny so I had to write it;
I know what you mean its hard to find a truck going the right speed, and even if you do they lose speed up hills actually that's when my chance is to pass them at 65mph in CC.

Raja

 

That actually works in my favor with P&G.

Paul

Edited by ptjones, 03 November 2017 - 10:04 AM.

[Stevenwalt@yahoo.com]

A follow up... I'm now down to 4.2KWh on the new battery. 93K miles, 36K of which on this battery.

How did you get the replacement under warranty? 

[mipmapped]

How did you get the replacement under warranty? 

It's all in the beginning of this thread. it was not easy. It sounds like my case was an exception though. I haven't see anyone else manage this.

 

As a follow up. I've given up. I now drive a 2018 Volt and am exceedingly happy with it. Much better battery management (including active liquid cooling). 54 miles range. I don't have to care about the battery. I just drive the 33 miles freeway to work at the limit, charge at work, and don't use a drop of gas through the work week even adding driving around town.

 

My daughter now has the C-Max and often drives it like a hybrid.

 

It's going to take a lot to convince me to buy a Ford again.

[David A]

Ive owned a 2017 C Max Energi for almost 2 months. It was originally titled to Ford and used by an employee of Ford From June 2017 until January 2018 when it was sold at auction to my dealer in St Paul. (Midway Ford)

 

It sat on their lot from late January 2018 until I bought it on June 1 2018. I bought it with 7000 miles. I get about 4.1 KWH from 100% to 0%  Charge time at 12 Amp using the factory cord is about 4 hours and 25 minutes.

 

My other car is a 2016 Volt so I am experienced with driving PHEVs.

 

Any thoughts on this? 

 

David A

[Tom_NC_1]

 

Ive owned a 2017 C Max Energi for almost 2 months. It was originally titled to Ford and used by an employee of Ford From June 2017 until January 2018 when it was sold at auction to my dealer in St Paul. (Midway Ford)

 

It sat on their lot from late January 2018 until I bought it on June 1 2018. I bought it with 7000 miles. I get about 4.1 KWH from 100% to 0%  Charge time at 12 Amp using the factory cord is about 4 hours and 25 minutes.

 

My other car is a 2016 Volt so I am experienced with driving PHEVs.

 

Any thoughts on this? 

 

David A

 

 

That is a low number of miles to have a HVB capacity loss issue. I have had a similar amount of lost capacity in the HVB after reaching excessive temperatures during one summer. If I had to guess it is likely that your HVB was exposed to overheating. The best way to avoid reaching damaging temperatures is to actively monitor the HVB temp then limit EV driving and charging during hot weather.

 

Tom

[tonymartin314]

Team C-Max Energi, For those of you who have seen large drop off in EV battery capacity, I have an outline on the process I will use to TRY to get the storage battery replaced under the CA warranty rules of 10yrs, 150K miles.  

 

I don't want to hear any namby pambers on this Forum going on and on about how to baby their battery and how awful I was in not doing so, in response to this input..

as others have correctly noted, we bought this car to drive, in EV, at any time at any place at any temp legal on Earth and not negated in Owner's manual.. and if that was NOT a suitable use case, it was Ford's job to limit C ratio to not eff it up.

Stop defending a multi Billion dollar company. 

Long and short, ANY major drop in energy capacity in a CA vehicle IS supposed to be covered per the reps I reached, and the State is ready to let loose their hounds on any who stand in the way. 

Vicky at CARB was helpful!
 

1) confirm the vehicle is in the right group to be covered, and registered and maybe sold in CA or other covered states. To determine this, there is a sticker on the bottom of the hood, lower left side. PZEV etc.. You can call 800 242 4450 for assistance if you want them to check what you find! They confirmed my car is in the right group.

2) Pay the $$ for a battery system eval at dealer, if you have to, get a case # started with corporate Ford

3) Get the results of battery check.. I know my system is rough, only 40000 miles, I can charge only about 3.3 kWhr via slow, and about 3.9 kWhr with fast charger,  not sure why they are so different, and for the "fast" charger, 1 out of 10 times, I flip the breaker. 

4) Ask for replacement under CA state warranty, per CA law and warranty requirements (which does not support ANY large storage reduction).

5) if they don't replace it, or try to charge you, contact 800 242 4450 for assistance, and they will loose those hounds!

6) back up option is that class action.. but per CARB, in CA, we are supposed to be covered!
 

https://www.drivecle.../Contact_Us.php

[Tom_NC_1]

Best of luck getting the HVB replaced. I do hope you keep us updated on the progress of your plan. As you requested I will not attempt to instruct you on babying the HVB. Everyone has a right to drive the car as they wish. I would never think to defend Ford for the design decision to air cool the HVB as it was a clearly flawed decision(IMO). Even their attempts to protect the HVB from overheating come up a bit short. 

 

So the question here is what amount of HVB lost capacity is excessive? You are down about 1.5kWh. Convincing Ford that that is excessive is going to be a challenge. I have never seen any documentation specifying what amount of lost capacity would be considered normal after 5 years. In fact most of Ford's claims are related to number of EV miles range. As we all know the EV mile range is very subjective and depended on how the car is driven. That gives Ford lots of wiggle room.

 

I do hope you convince Ford to provide you with a new HVB but I am not optimistic that you will be successful.

 

Tom

[dontfret]

Team C-Max Energi, For those of you who have seen large drop off in EV battery capacity, I have an outline on the process I will use to TRY to get the storage battery replaced under the CA warranty rules of 10yrs, 150K miles.  

 

I don't want to hear any namby pambers on this Forum going on and on about how to baby their battery and how awful I was in not doing so, in response to this input..

as others have correctly noted, we bought this car to drive, in EV, at any time at any place at any temp legal on Earth and not negated in Owner's manual.. and if that was NOT a suitable use case, it was Ford's job to limit C ratio to not eff it up.

Stop defending a multi Billion dollar company. 

Long and short, ANY major drop in energy capacity in a CA vehicle IS supposed to be covered per the reps I reached, and the State is ready to let loose their hounds on any who stand in the way. 

Vicky at CARB was helpful!
 

1) confirm the vehicle is in the right group to be covered, and registered and maybe sold in CA or other covered states. To determine this, there is a sticker on the bottom of the hood, lower left side. PZEV etc.. You can call 800 242 4450 for assistance if you want them to check what you find! They confirmed my car is in the right group.

2) Pay the $$ for a battery system eval at dealer, if you have to, get a case # started with corporate Ford

3) Get the results of battery check.. I know my system is rough, only 40000 miles, I can charge only about 3.3 kWhr via slow, and about 3.9 kWhr with fast charger,  not sure why they are so different, and for the "fast" charger, 1 out of 10 times, I flip the breaker. 

4) Ask for replacement under CA state warranty, per CA law and warranty requirements (which does not support ANY large storage reduction).

5) if they don't replace it, or try to charge you, contact 800 242 4450 for assistance, and they will loose those hounds!

6) back up option is that class action.. but per CARB, in CA, we are supposed to be covered!
 

https://www.drivecle.../Contact_Us.php

 

 

I appreciate your passion, and just want to give my experience and decision.

 

I did all of what you describe, through step 6.  I did open a warranty claim with Ford, got battery assessment and had documented evidence of the capacity loss.  (BTW, get yourself a bluetooth OBD2 reader, TorquePro app and read here in other threads how to read out the SOC, EV battery temp and Energy To Empty values.  Won't make it any better, but you'll have a great understanding of what is happening).  Short story, they told me to pound sand.

 

A law firm investigated the merits of the case (they were the firmthat successfully got LEAF owners replacement batteries).  I was asked to be the class representative.  After about a year they decided not to file. The flaw in your logic is in step 4, as the warranty does not list any level of SOC capacity which is below which it fails to meet a warranty limit.  Ford will not declare a warranty limit --like Mistusbisho 2018 Outlander, says   "The traction battery on the Outlander PHEV comes with a warranty of 8 Years / 100,000 miles. 

This includes a guarantee that if the traction battery capacity falls below 70% in the first 8 years/100,000 miles a free repair or replacement will be provided.   

You can jump up and down and scream and "loose the hounds" but you will never be able to make a case that whatever you degrade to is not within the Ford vague "LiOn batteries will normally lose storage capacity over time."  The law firm decided they would not be able to get a warranty limit declared - they won that decision for Leaf since that was an EV car and loss of storage capacity means car don't go.  With a  hybrid, you can lose the entire PHEV capacity and still perform indefinitely as a hybrid, so by that definition they support the 10 year/150K miles under the California requirement.  In theory, every PHEV, if driven long enough (say 15 -20 years) will show enough battery degradation until the effective PHEV portion is lost, and the minimal battery capacity to serve as a hybrid remains.  What we're arguing here is our (realistic) expectation that our PHEV portion would be near the original for a much longer time, and your hope/wish/belief that the 10/150K means original capacity - it never will, since some degradation is always going to happen. 

 

I chose to not accept the role of class rep since they expected a 3-4 year case during which I must continue to own the car, and during which Ford lawyers and engineers would frequently depose me in a hostile manner to discredit my use of the car and discourage.  My decision was to trade it this month at 5 years/50000 miles on a new PHEV (Kia Niro EX Premium) while it still had reasonable trade value.  And yes, it's also an air cooled battery pack.  

 

Your experience and success may be entirely different, so keep us informed on how you progress, and we hope you are successful.  There is one proven replacement of a Cmax Energi battery under warranty, it was reported here as the first entry of this thread (2016).  But it seems like unicorn sightings - done once, never seen again.  Let's hope you are the second and lead the way for others to follow.

Edited by dontfret, 17 September 2018 - 01:41 PM.

[myaman]

@

tonymartin314

Any updates on the HVB replacement? I agree with you, its a car to be driven in any mode(EV or hybrid) I see fit under normally operating conditions until and unless barred in the manual, no need to babysit the battery and Ford should be help accountable for battery deterioration under normal use due to faulty design.

I just bought a used 2015 CMax Energi with 24600 miles on it for 13k considering it a good deal. Now I am wondering if it has any battery deterioration. When charged from empty to full using the Ford 110v charger it gets charged in just 5 hours, Does that means a degraded battery? The car was leased and registered by single owner in Portland, OR earlier so don't expect it to be subjected to extreme high temperatures because of mild summers.

Edited by myaman, 28 September 2018 - 11:46 AM.

[John A Smith]

My 2014 C-Max Energi is 4 1/2 years old with about 70k miles.  When I bought it new I got at least 21 miles on a full charge and it could even approach 30 miles while babying the drive.  Now the most I get is 14 miles on a full charge.   Same location, same trips and with ideal outdoor temperatures.  My Ford dealer service dept agreed that me battery should be doing better.  They suggested that I leave it for a diagnostic at a fee of $150.  When I asked what the criteria was for getting the battery replaced they had no idea.  So I asked, "you're saying that I could spend $150 only to be told that a 40% loss in battery capacity in 4 1/2 years is normal?"  I think there should be a guide in the warranty telling what the future battery capacity is guaranteed to be.  10% loss per year, really?  My battery is supposed to be warranted for 10 years or 150,000 miles in California.  When do I have a warranty claim if there's no guide?  I would think an action against Ford could be based on their warranty being meaningless and totally arbitrary.   

Edited by John A Smith, 22 November 2018 - 02:30 PM.

[jzchen]

Ford could not create a Prius PHEV beater without doing it the way they did. I’m sure their engineers knew that they were sacrificing battery longevity to give the Energi all the Prius beating specs, longer range, speeds up to 80+ MPH in full EV mode, greater regeneration capacity, I know I’m forgetting some. That’s why they avoided clear degradation guidelines....

[Billyk24]

Ford could not create a Prius PHEV beater without doing it the way they did.​  

 

   The air cooling hybrid battery pack system dates from the 2010 Ford Escape/Fusion Hybrid when the air conditioning duct lines to the hybrid battery pack were removed saving weight and hybrid repair costs associated with repairs to the cooling lines.   The C-Max was never created from the get go for a hybrid power system.  Thus the space reduction in the cargo area.   A new Ford platform for hybrid systems is needed and one will have to await for Ford to reveal such a vehicle.  

[rbort]

Unless you're in a hot climate air cooling works decently...  Trouble is hot summer days or living in the south.

 

-=>Raja.