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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Gas cheaper than Electric in TN

mpge mpg gas electric price efficiency

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16 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   createthis

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Posted 02 March 2016 - 07:35 AM

My partner just bought a 2013 C-Max Energi a couple of days ago. I had previously developed this free calculator site because I found MPG-e so misleading and wanted an easy way to compare Electric MPG-e cost to Gas MPG cost: http://mpgecost.com/...st-comparison#/

 

I ran the numbers for the C-Max Energi and with current gas prices ( $1.36 / gallon ) and current electric rates ( 10 cents per killowatt hour ), the C-Max Energi is actually cheaper to run on gas: http://imgur.com/a/Xfs9N (screenshots of the calculator)

 

That hasn't stopped me from plugging it in every night. I just really enjoy the all electric experience. But it's interesting all the same. I don't think the Volt is cheaper on gas at these prices. The C-Max must be less efficient for some reason.

 

Still a cool little vehicle though. My partner is really loving it.









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#2 OFFLINE   RubyMax

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Posted 02 March 2016 - 08:11 AM

Gasoline won't stay that low for much longer.



#3 ONLINE   rbort

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Posted 02 March 2016 - 08:17 AM

Your calculation is flawed because the Cmax is going to net somewhere between 125 (winter) and 210mpge (summer) on electricity.  I see you put some mpge number in there less than 100.  If I used 40mpg for the engine for the Cmax and 150 mpge for electric for a 20 mile trip (we have to assume all electric vs all gas), then gas would have to be cheaper than 88 cents a gallon to be cheaper according to the calculator that you used.

 

Just saying...

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 02 March 2016 - 08:21 AM.


#4 OFFLINE   fotomoto

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Posted 02 March 2016 - 08:45 AM

The DOE recently came out with a new gas vs elect calculator based on states instead of using a national avg. as was done before:   http://energy.gov/maps/egallon#   

 

Yet it's still an average.  Here in Texas, we can choose our providers and thus shop rates and the current lowest 1 yr plan is 6.9 cents 24/7; no special late night metering, etc.  Another provider has free overnight rates but higher than avg. during the day.   I get that if I had a huge battery BEV but I choose to pay more for green energy and a 3 year locked in rate.  How many folks know what the price of gasoline will be then?   :wink:

 

It's really cool that we have the choice of two fuel sources and prices.  



#5 OFFLINE   bschwerdt

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Posted 02 March 2016 - 10:37 AM

Your calculation is flawed because the Cmax is going to net somewhere between 125 (winter) and 210mpge (summer) on electricity.  I see you put some mpge number in there less than 100.  If I used 40mpg for the engine for the Cmax and 150 mpge for electric for a 20 mile trip (we have to assume all electric vs all gas), then gas would have to be cheaper than 88 cents a gallon to be cheaper according to the calculator that you used.

 

Just saying...

 

-=>Raja.

 

Where are you getting your numbers?  From the dash?  Because the dash numbers don't include charging losses.  You have to count wall-to-wheels, not just battery-to-wheels (the latter being all that the car knows).  The latter will be a higher MPGe number than the former, but the former deals with the electricity you actually pay for.

 

I've gone through my reasons before, but I use a factor of 12 for L2 and 15 for L1 as a rough rule of thumb when comparing gas to electric prices.  It works out like this: Say you pay $0.10/kWh for electricity.  If you charge your car on L1 (e.g. with the provided 120V charge cord), gas would have to be 15 x $0.10 = $1.50/gallon to break even.  If you have an L2 EVSE at home (240V, typically installed in your garage or in public), the car charges more efficiently.  So using the same $0.10/kWh, gas would have to be $1.20/gallon to break even.



#6 ONLINE   rbort

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Posted 02 March 2016 - 11:55 AM

Hey Brian, yes the MPGe numbers is what I get reported by the car the way I drive it.  I know that the car takes about 7kwh out of the outlet to give 5.5kwh of usable charge on average, so you're right its more but I have not bothered to calculate what the Mpge numbers really end up being, if you want to do that I'll look at it.  I never worried about it because all of my charging is cost free, I fill up my car at the big-y locally here in town when out shopping or at home on solar panels at 120v as needed to make it enough to go somewhere and charge there, either way free for me so the mpge numbers is just an indication for me of how well I'm doing while driving and how far I can go if I keep up what I'm currently doing on that drive.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 02 March 2016 - 11:55 AM.


#7 OFFLINE   blandman

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Posted 02 March 2016 - 12:02 PM

In Northern California it is still no contest. Electricity is still about a dollar cheaper per "gallon" per the DOE calculator. On top of that, we have solar panels, so the "fill up" at home is really cheap, and will be free in about 3 years when the we have recouped our initial investment. At least in California, rooftop solar is a very compelling proposition for home and mobility.



#8 OFFLINE   stevedebi

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Posted 02 March 2016 - 12:34 PM

Where are you getting your numbers?  From the dash?  Because the dash numbers don't include charging losses.  You have to count wall-to-wheels, not just battery-to-wheels (the latter being all that the car knows).  The latter will be a higher MPGe number than the former, but the former deals with the electricity you actually pay for.

 

I've gone through my reasons before, but I use a factor of 12 for L2 and 15 for L1 as a rough rule of thumb when comparing gas to electric prices.  It works out like this: Say you pay $0.10/kWh for electricity.  If you charge your car on L1 (e.g. with the provided 120V charge cord), gas would have to be 15 x $0.10 = $1.50/gallon to break even.  If you have an L2 EVSE at home (240V, typically installed in your garage or in public), the car charges more efficiently.  So using the same $0.10/kWh, gas would have to be $1.20/gallon to break even.

I work mine out exactly, based on the L1 efficiency factor at 72%. It is put into my spreadsheet every time I fill up, based on the KW hours reported on my trip meter. Then I compare that with what it WOULD have cost to fill up all gas instead. So far it is still better to use the electricity.

 

This last fill up was different, since I was on a trip (almost all on EV Later), but even then it would have saved only 25 cents to have gone all gas. Most fill ups I save between 6 and 10 bucks by driving some EV.

 

That doesn't factor in the small amount of electricity the L1 uses when not charging. I leave it plugged in all the time.



#9 OFFLINE   mitrals

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Posted 02 March 2016 - 01:02 PM

I do my math a little differently. A full charge is 7KW @12 cents/KWH = 84 cents. I can only get 13 miles in Chicago winters (sorry cannot live without the heat) so my cost is about 6.5 cents a mile. Gas here is $1.79/gallon and I get 35 miles out of it costing me about 5 cents a mile. In winter my break even is at $2.25/gallon and $1.49/gallon in summer.



#10 ONLINE   rbort

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Posted 02 March 2016 - 02:52 PM

Blandman:

 

Definitely solar is the way to go, best thing I ever did free electricity since August 2013 and from my initial investment only 10.6k remains to be paid off and that's not counting free electric for the past 2 1/2 years.  If I add that into the mix then only about 6.3k remains.  This winter due to being a warmer one and not much snow I even skated through all of it without having to dip into any reserves (in other words buy any electricity from the electric company), so my invoice now shows 12 months looking back 1 year with 0 kwh used.  Put a smile to my face and the Cmax continues to give out free miles day after day with free charging :)

 

How does my math go?  

 

 A full charge is 7KW @0 cents/KWH = 0 cents

 

 Sorry, couldn't resist...!   :giggle:

 

I get about 22 miles per charge in the dead of winter and about 30 in the summer, and I never use the heat unless the engine is already running on a long trip.

 

Edit:  Just found this chart from my electric company's account, take a look....

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 02 March 2016 - 03:18 PM.


#11 OFFLINE   quiet_rider

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 05:41 AM

my reply from yesterday didn't disappeared. looked like it posted. this is a test, with spreadsheet image attached. click on thumbnail to view image

Attached Files


Edited by quiet_rider, 17 January 2018 - 05:51 AM.


#12 OFFLINE   quiet_rider

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 05:51 AM

Can't remember all the text from yesterday but am looking for someone to correct me so I can charge at home & believe marketing "EV are cheaper to operate than GAS/ICE". 

Based on these calcs, it is also less expensive in MA to use gas vs electric (like TN).

I'm stuck on the right MPG to use for the calcs tho'...CITY MPG + HIGHWAY MPG. Blended commuter MPG later.

 

ps I get a 'error, can't use that file extension' when I copy paste a jpg (of spreadsheet) but I can see it in preview. also got youtube pop up when click on 'add reply' has site been hacked?



#13 ONLINE   rbort

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 07:47 AM

Depends if you're driving city or highway.  If you're around in the city, you can average in the 50's mpg on the ICE in the summer, in the winter its in the low 40's to high 30's.  It all depends on your style of driving.  My buddy Ansy got it the worst in performance, at 27mpg on the ice.

 

Electric is the same idea, you can max out around 22 miles per charge in the winter if you don't waste it on heat, or 37 miles per charge in the summer without AC.

 

I would never pay for charging on the road, it doesn't make sense.  Faster to pay $2 for gas than $2 for electric and wait 2 hours to charge up.  So never pay and promote that idea, besides, there are still plenty of free chargers around on the road (thankfully).

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 17 January 2018 - 08:09 AM.


#14 OFFLINE   marlowefamily

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 07:03 PM

You all have it easy....Southern California has horrible electric prices, energy pricing is based on usage tiers that don't take into account home size/family size/working at home/homeschooling/etc....the thinking is that Electricity rates should be as high as possible to force all homeowners to install Tesla Solar Panels/roof shingles + Battery Backup.  And, pricing should be cheap only if you are a single illegal immigrant w/o kids that is only home long enough to sleep and always uses windows for cooling rather than A/C.

 

I'm paying an average of 24 cents/kwh now and expect that future rate increases will bring it above 30 cents/KWH within 3yrs...they are already talking about quadrupling rates for anyone who is in the highest usage tier.  Within 10-15 years, I expect we'll exceed 50 cents/KWH.  The states goal is forcing reduction in per capita usage, not keeping rates low.

 

I have thermo-electric panels for pool heating now, and as soon as I am sure that I can find the right long term and durable panels...I'll  be installing a huge number of solar electric so that we've covered both the roof and a large hill. 

 

At the moment, electric is still slightly cheaper than gas...but not by a substantial amount to justify paying that much extra for a plugin hybrid.   The local utility ended providing huge incentives via purchase price discounts to encourage local homeowners to buy Nissan Leaf's and BMW i3's.  Ford C-Max was not included.  I still think the 2017 Cmax Energi is a great car though.



#15 ONLINE   spirilis

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Posted 19 January 2018 - 05:59 AM

You all have it easy....Southern California has horrible electric prices, energy pricing is based on usage tiers that don't take into account home size/family size/working at home/homeschooling/etc....the thinking is that Electricity rates should be as high as possible to force all homeowners to install Tesla Solar Panels/roof shingles + Battery Backup.  And, pricing should be cheap only if you are a single illegal immigrant w/o kids that is only home long enough to sleep and always uses windows for cooling rather than A/C.

 

I'm paying an average of 24 cents/kwh now and expect that future rate increases will bring it above 30 cents/KWH within 3yrs...they are already talking about quadrupling rates for anyone who is in the highest usage tier.  Within 10-15 years, I expect we'll exceed 50 cents/KWH.  The states goal is forcing reduction in per capita usage, not keeping rates low.

 

I have thermo-electric panels for pool heating now, and as soon as I am sure that I can find the right long term and durable panels...I'll  be installing a huge number of solar electric so that we've covered both the roof and a large hill. 

 

At the moment, electric is still slightly cheaper than gas...but not by a substantial amount to justify paying that much extra for a plugin hybrid.   The local utility ended providing huge incentives via purchase price discounts to encourage local homeowners to buy Nissan Leaf's and BMW i3's.  Ford C-Max was not included.  I still think the 2017 Cmax Energi is a great car though.

Ugh... talk about shooting your nose to spite your face.  Sorry to hear about that.



#16 OFFLINE   MaxLB

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 07:55 AM

You all have it easy....Southern California has horrible electric prices, energy pricing is based on usage tiers that don't take into account home size/family size/working at home/homeschooling/etc....the thinking is that Electricity rates should be as high as possible to force all homeowners to install Tesla Solar Panels/roof shingles + Battery Backup.  And, pricing should be cheap only if you are a single illegal immigrant w/o kids that is only home long enough to sleep and always uses windows for cooling rather than A/C.

 

I'm paying an average of 24 cents/kwh now and expect that future rate increases will bring it above 30 cents/KWH within 3yrs...they are already talking about quadrupling rates for anyone who is in the highest usage tier.  Within 10-15 years, I expect we'll exceed 50 cents/KWH.  The states goal is forcing reduction in per capita usage, not keeping rates low.

 

I have thermo-electric panels for pool heating now, and as soon as I am sure that I can find the right long term and durable panels...I'll  be installing a huge number of solar electric so that we've covered both the roof and a large hill. 

 

At the moment, electric is still slightly cheaper than gas...but not by a substantial amount to justify paying that much extra for a plugin hybrid.   The local utility ended providing huge incentives via purchase price discounts to encourage local homeowners to buy Nissan Leaf's and BMW i3's.  Ford C-Max was not included.  I still think the 2017 Cmax Energi is a great car though.

 

I live in SoCal.  My home is rarely out of Tier 1.  We have A/C and use it without much regard to cost (it's a very efficient model though).  I have a TOU meter for charging and pay roughly 15 cents to charge, while gas is way over $3 now.  I can even charge on peak and still come out ahead if I want to.  SCE sent me $450 just because I have an EV, even after I had bought the car, plus the state rebate and Federal tax credit of course.


Edited by MaxLB, 20 January 2018 - 07:56 AM.


#17 OFFLINE   marlowefamily

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Posted 24 January 2018 - 05:28 PM

Just got my January gas and electric bill.  Gas usage was 40% less than last year, electric use was 3% more.  Bill was $536 -- nearly all of that on the electric side.    The utility says our annual bill is roughly $5K/yr.

 

I have kids who are partly homeschooled and I work from home, plus we always cook at home rather than eat out.  We do use quite a bit of electricity, but there isn't anyway around that.  We've already switched all lights to LED, upgraded the HVAC to be super efficient, turned down the temperature in the winter.   One of my sons is modestly allergic to contaminants in unfiltered air, so instead of windows we have a hyper efficient ventilation system that pushes air through two filters on the way inside the house and ensures there is minimal heat loss (doctor prescribed)...this ventilation system is run as cheap as we can configure it.  We're also on a medical baseline discounted use plan.  We have a solar heated pool with ultra efficient pump.

 

There are 3 pricing tiers - 20 cents/kwh for tier 1.   25 cents/KWH for tier 2.  And, 30 cents/KWH for tier 3.   We average between 1,350-2100KWH/month w/ usually half of our usage in tier 1 and the other half in tier 2.  There are also taxes...I calculate my average rate as between 23.5-24.5 cents/kwh depending on the month.

 

The offered time-of-use plans don't really provide any discount....and honestly, the C-Max utilization would count for under 40KWH/month as I don't have to make a daily commute.  The utility estimates all time of use plans will cost us more and I'm not going to tell the kids and rest of the family not to cook dinner or do their homework in the early evening to save electricity during their max-rate time period (4pm-9pm).

 

The state told us not to even bother applying for the EV rebate since we actually make enough $ to pay real taxes.  On the other hand, they would increase the rebate substantially for anyone in poverty.   Why someone in poverty should be buying an EV car, I have no idea.  Nor, why the state has to both charge higher tax rates and cut rebates/services for those w/ higher incomes.  But, this is California...nothing makes sense.

 

The only real solution seems to be to put in place both a large solar electric panel system plus several batteries and then switch to a time of use pricing plan and then generate and store power during the day and draw down power from the batteries from 4pm-9pm.  This won't be cheap to setup and install, but over 10+yrs will end paying for itself.


Edited by marlowefamily, 24 January 2018 - 11:41 PM.










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