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120 vs. 240


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19 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   Themooman

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 08:39 AM

I noticed that Ford recommends buying the charging station to energize the Energi. Would it be damaging to the car or batteries to consistently use the charger that comes with the car?
I have read that it actually takes more power to charge the batteries than is indicated(wasted power?) how significant is that when you talk about actual cost?
Your thoughts.








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#2 OFFLINE   mikeb

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:16 AM

In general, a slow charge puts less wear on batteries than a fast charge. So as long as you usually have 7 hours available to charge up, I'd stick with the 110v charger that comes with the car. So for my daily commuting needs, the provided charger is perfect.

On the other hand, if you are doing lots of errands on the weekend, it might be nice to recharge in just 2 hours using a fast charger. But a level 2 charger is going to be expensive, probably at least $1,000, so it's harder to justify that expense. You really have to take advantage of the fast charge quite often in order to make it worthwhile.

I don't know about wasted power differences, I suspect that both 110v charging and 220v charging have very similar efficiency levels. I wouldn't expect any noticable impact on cost purely due to charge rate, though you will notice an impact to your wallet if you are able to fast charge more often, and thus drive more on electricity than gas.
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#3 OFFLINE   scooter_scum

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 02:36 PM

Personally the addition of a 220 charger is a waste of $$ for our family. Our car leaves the house in the morning. Comes home in the evening. Sits in the garage for 12 hours or so. Whether or not it charges in 7 hours or 2.5 hours, it is charged in plenty of time for the next drive. Might help on weekends, but not worth the extra expense for the potential extra charge on weekends. $1,000 charger goes a long way towards the family budget.
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#4 OFFLINE   bschwerdt

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 02:07 PM

The efficiency will probably be higher at 240V (less time with parasitic overhead), but almost trivially so.

IMHO, there are two reasons to consider the 240V charger:
1) You do a lot of short trips, returning home in between (e.g. a stay-at-home parent, or just on weekends). In this case, you will be able to do more driving on electricity by charging faster.
2) You want to bring the 120V charge cord with you, but don't want the hassle of packing/unpacking it repeatedly. In this case, you are paying for a convenience (which may or may not be worth it, depending on the person).

#5 OFFLINE   Don

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 02:41 PM

The efficiency will probably be higher at 240V (less time with parasitic overhead), but almost trivially so.

IMHO, there are two reasons to consider the 240V charger:
1) You do a lot of short trips, returning home in between (e.g. a stay-at-home parent, or just on weekends). In this case, you will be able to do more driving on electricity by charging faster.
2) You want to bring the 120V charge cord with you, but don't want the hassle of packing/unpacking it repeatedly. In this case, you are paying for a convenience (which may or may not be worth it, depending on the person).


For my personal use I am mostly going to get a 240V charger for reason 2. I think there are plenty of other reasons to get a level 2 charger. Here is a couple of more: 1) You want to provide quick charge for family friends who visit in their EV or HEV. 2) For safety, the quicker you can charge the sooner you will have full capacity to help in an emergency situation (I.E. transportation to high ground in a tsunami).

Oh, almost forgot the most important: Badge of honor to make your neighbors jealous. Having a charge station hanging on the front of your garage, where all can see, gives you snubbing and bragging rights ; ).

Edited by Don, 03 December 2012 - 02:47 PM.


#6 OFFLINE   Frankman

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 06:38 PM

Generally I agree that it is better for a battery to charge slowly. But Ford has limited the Energi's 240 volt charge rate to 3.3 kWs. So the difference in the charge rate between them120 volt and 240 chargers isn't that significant. 3.3 kWs is pretty slow compared to the Focus EV 6.6 kW charge rate or the even faster Tesla charge rate.

In general, a slow charge puts less wear on batteries than a fast charge. So as long as you usually have 7 hours available to charge up, I'd stick with the 110v charger that comes with the car.



#7 OFFLINE   viajero

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 07:35 PM

The 120V charger pulls 1.4 kW from the wall, so as expected it's about half the charging rate of the 240V. Ford's spec sheet says 2.5 hours to charge from 240, and 7 hourse to charge from 120. I've seen 6-6.5 hourse from 120. I don't know where to find any quantitative data as to how those different charge rates affect battery aging.

Batteries lose some energy as heat both charging and discharging. At both my home 120V and work 240V chargers, I'm getting 75-80% round trip efficiency. That is, if the trip meter says I used 4 kWh driving, it takes just over 5 kWh from the wall to fill it back up. This is what I would expect from reading about rechargeable batteries in general.

I did notice the round trip efficiency is worse when topping off an almost full battery. If I drive a very short trip and only use 0.5 kWh, it might take 1 kWh to fill it back up, thus half the energy is wasted.

Edited by viajero, 05 December 2012 - 07:36 PM.


#8 OFFLINE   bschwerdt

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 06:57 AM

Generally I agree that it is better for a battery to charge slowly. But Ford has limited the Energi's 240 volt charge rate to 3.3 kWs. So the difference in the charge rate between them120 volt and 240 chargers isn't that significant. 3.3 kWs is pretty slow compared to the Focus EV 6.6 kW charge rate or the even faster Tesla charge rate.


Battery charge rates are proportional to the battery size. 1C rate is charging the battery in 1 hour. For example, to charge the Energi's 7.6kWh battery in 1 hour, requires 7.6kW. Typically, anything less than a 1C rate is pretty easy on the battery.

You must be careful, though, when comparing different cars. The Energi has a 7.6kWh battery and a 3.3kW charger. This is at best a 0.43C charge rate (less with overhead). The Focus has a 23kWh battery and a 6.6kW charger. This is at best a 0.29C charge rate. Therefore, even though it has a more powerful charger, the Focus is effectively charging at a slower C rate than the Energi, and will therefore be gentler on the battery. What's more, the Focus has liquid-cooled batteries, which makes the charging even more gentle.

Tesla has huge battery, although the superchargers do charge them at greater than 1C rate (full charge in less than an hour). The typical 240V charge will be much less than that. The max 240V charger is 20kW, into an 85kWh battery. That's only 0.24C.
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#9 OFFLINE   rtshinn

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 07:43 AM

From a review:
"Drivers whose garages are already equipped with a 220 outlet may want to wait for a new cord Ford is developing that would negate the need for an entire charger and cost about $500."
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#10 OFFLINE   bschwerdt

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 10:32 AM

From a review:
"Drivers whose garages are already equipped with a 220 outlet may want to wait for a new cord Ford is developing that would negate the need for an entire charger and cost about $500."


Could you point us to that review? I also wonder if that cord will be compatible with all J1772 cars. Sounds like an OEM version of what www.evseupgrade.com offers.

#11 OFFLINE   Valkraider

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:19 PM

Check the news threads.

#12 OFFLINE   Valkraider

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 03:50 PM

I wonder how much difference there is Level1 vs Level2 with the overhead of the battery cooling fans?

My battery fans run constant any time the car is plugged in and charging. Over Level2 it takes 2 hours and 37 minutes to charge from empty. On Level1 at 7+ hours, that means those fans are running for 5 extra hours to get a full charge.

Could that explain at least some of the efficiency loss of the Level1 charging?

#13 OFFLINE   mikeb

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 04:01 PM

How much power do you think those fans really draw? I suspect it's something like 10w, so you're adding 10wh in overhead when putting 7,600wh into a battery. In other words, too small to count for much. Even if they were 100w fans, they aren't consuming much power compared to the battery. I think the efficiency of the charger is going to be far more important, 90% vs 85% would make for a much larger impact, and I know things like PC power supplies have different efficiency ratings depending on how much power you are drawing from them.



#14 OFFLINE   Don

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 04:07 PM

Excellent thought on the fans. Early in my engineering career one of my tasks was to source cooling fans for that new fangled device known as a PC. It became well known that fan failure led to PC failure and the life of the entire device was a result of the MTBF of the fan. Thanks for pointing that out! Unless the fans are cheap, and easy to replace, I would definately recommend keeping the fan duty cycle to a minimum.


Edited by Don, 26 December 2012 - 04:09 PM.


#15 OFFLINE   Valkraider

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 05:13 PM

That's what warranties are for. ;)

#16 OFFLINE   Don

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 06:09 PM

Speaking of warranties I noticed that the window sticker says the all electric range is from 0-21 miles. Does this mean if the battery degrades and the car has zero electric range that the car performs, as advertised?



#17 OFFLINE   Valkraider

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 07:25 PM

Probably, hehe... :)

Although CARB rules may not consider that valid. CARB states require strict 150,000 mile warranties on batteries and electric drive components.

#18 OFFLINE   Don

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 07:54 PM

Maybe true but if the car performs as advertised, 0-21 miles, I don't see what CARB can do about it. The battery warranty is a greased pig munching on a can of worms.



#19 OFFLINE   Valkraider

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 07:57 PM

The CARB warranty is more strict than the standard warranty, and may have a different standard for "acceptable performance".

It's all just speculation though for a few more years, right? :)

#20 OFFLINE   Charles

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 11:05 AM

I think the recharge loss is higher, we will not be putting a full charge of 7.6kw back in the battery, maybe

6 to 6.5kw. discharge to18 to 20% recharge to 92 to 95% will give us around 6kw usable. We have fan loss and AC to DC to DC loss from the charger, 120v ac to 320v dc or 240v ac to 320v dc ?

120v   1400w * 6hr= 8400w  + 1 hr for last 10% of charge 700w ?

240v   3300w * 2hr= 6600w  + .5 hr for last 10% of charge 1650w or less ?

Using 240v will use less KW to charge.

We do not know what the battery voltage is till some one pug's in a scangage to find out.

 

Do we care how marking tell us how big the battery size is, what we care about is usable kw, Volt has 16kw battery, 8 to11kw usable, Prius 4.4kw, 3 to 3.5 usable, C-Max 7.6kw, 6 to 6.5 usable?

 

I was looking at ford parts to see how the battery is put togeter, 1/4 of the right side is charger, Attached File  cmx13_pg_005_int_full.jpg   37.29KB   13 downloads

and if ford had moved the charger to some other location (under back seat or behind the back

side of battery pack near the rear door) there would be space in side the case for 2 to 3kw more battery (cost maybe $1500 more) and give us 9.5 to 10kw for 8 to 8.5kw usable that would give us 25-27 miles per charge,(it would have look good on the EPA test 25 miles no gas used) and we would get 18-20 miles when we run the 5kw electric heater. not 11 to 13,

( I would have run the HVAC as a heatpump 1.5kw and as needed 1kw supplemental heat, and when it got to cold >25F, start the engine.) 

 

Look we are willing to give up space for a bigger battery, put in the bigger battery.

But then the c-max would weigh over 4000lb (need to stay under 4000lbs) .

Then put in smaller gas tank,11-12gal, or smaller, or one less muffler, 1 to 2 mm less sound proofing,

what ever, only need to fine maybe 30 to 40lbs to get more kw's.

I know they will save that for the next model.

 

Manufacturs are taking a chance on bring us plugin hybrids, the c-max energi is not a purpose built electric car, it's not perfict but it close, it could have been closer. Ford is taking less of a chance with building the c-max at there new factory, then GM or Nissan, they can buid to order on the same line as the focus.

Look what happen to the Volt, they close down the line for a while.

 

I am voting with my money by buying a C-Max Energy to replace me 2001 Excape, just like when got a 2005 AWD Hybrid Excape,

I want Ford to keep improving there electric car's. and when they come out with the AWD plugin Excape

I will buy one to replace my 2005 Hybrid Excape.

 


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