Jump to content

Custom Search




Welcome to the Ford C-MAX Energi Forum


Sign In  Log in with Facebook

Create Account
Welcome to the Ford C-MAX Energi Forum. You must register to create topics or post in our community - but don't worry this is a simple free process that requires minimal information for you to signup. Be apart of Ford C-MAX Energi Forum by signing in or creating an account.
  • Start new topics and reply to others
  • Subscribe to topics and forums to get email updates
  • Get your own profile page and make new friends
  • Send personal messages to other members
  • Create a photo album and post images. . .more.
Click here to create an account now.
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Get you C-MAX Energi Registered in the official Ford Authorized Registry. More here.


Photo
- - - - -

Right time for icing?


  • Please log in to reply
10 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   miltwempley

miltwempley

    New Member

  • C-MAX Energi Member
  • Pip
  • 3 posts
  • Region:Decline
  • LocationSeattle
  • My C-MAX:Decline
  • Current Vehicle:C-Max

Posted 27 October 2015 - 10:31 AM

So I'm new to the PHEV game, and looking for a little advice on when to balance EV vs. ICE mode.

 

My commute is 32.5 miles one way, so out of range for all electric. There are 4 zones to my commute:

  • residential at 25 mph for 3.5 miles
  • 15 miles of 70 mph freeway,
  • 10 miles of 60 mpg freeway
  • 4 miles of high traffic, low speed urban.

 

In the morning, the trip starts downhill -- basically a coasting thing, but since the vehicle is coming off a fresh charge, there is virtually zero regen. I actually put the car in EV Later mode to start and it ends up being in electric regardless. I then ICE on the freeway portion (70+ mph) then switch to EV for the last portion of freeway and urban driving with a goal of getting to work with the battery at zero.

 

I can fully recharge at work.

 

My question is about my return trip. The last 3.5 miles of low speed driving is a fairly steep grade, I have to gain 500 feet of elevation in those 3.5 miles to get home. I need to save about "7 miles" of range in order to actually complete the 3.5 miles in EV mode because of the grade -- basically a third of the battery to only cover 3.5 miles.

 

I'm curious if using EV at the end of the trip is a) hard on the battery and/or EV motors and b) the most efficient use of the EV range? Given that I have to use the ICE at somepoint in the trip anyway, would I be better off using it early and powering up the hill on gas?

 

I'm not a super hyper miler type. I enjoy being efficient and saving gas, but I'm actually most concerned that using the EV in this way is hard on the system.

 

Thoughts?









Lose this advertisement by becoming a member. Click here to create a free account.

#2 OFFLINE   rbort

rbort

    Energi Member

  • C-MAX Energi Member
  • PipPip
  • 4,151 posts
  • Region:U.S. Northeast
  • LocationFranklin, MA
  • My C-MAX:2017
  • Current Vehicle:Cmax Energi Titanium with Moonroof

Posted 27 October 2015 - 11:10 AM

It is hard on the battery to drain it fast and climb steep.  If you're going slow with less than 2 bars its OK.  If the engine never runs then I'd say climb it on battery.  If the engine is already warm then I'd say use the engine to assist the battery to climb it.

 

If you run with the battery on the freeway, then you need to slow down, 70 is hard on the battery.  Choose 50 to 55mph speed tops would be better.

 

If you have google maps start and finish points I'd be glad to look at that and suggest an alternate route for you to maximize the EV potential and hence help you achieve a more efficient drive.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 27 October 2015 - 11:10 AM.


#3 OFFLINE   miltwempley

miltwempley

    New Member

  • C-MAX Energi Member
  • Pip
  • 3 posts
  • Region:Decline
  • LocationSeattle
  • My C-MAX:Decline
  • Current Vehicle:C-Max

Posted 27 October 2015 - 11:46 AM

Thanks for the quick reply. I definitely prioritize the ICE for the 70 MPH portion, and since that's the last section before the climb, the engine will indeed be warmed up. The climb takes up to 3 bars in sections to keep any kind of reasonable speed. I'll try to deplete the battery on the urban and slow section of the freeway tonight and save the last section for ICE and compare the economy to previous trips.

 

Thanks for the offer for routing, but there's really only one way to go without being incredibly indirect and adding beaucoup mileage to the trip.



#4 OFFLINE   jeromep

jeromep

    New Member

  • C-MAX Energi Member
  • Pip
  • 76 posts
  • Region:U.S. Pacific Coast
  • LocationWashington
  • My C-MAX:2014
  • Current Vehicle:C-Max Energi

Posted 27 October 2015 - 11:51 AM

If you run with the battery on the freeway, then you need to slow down, 70 is hard on the battery.  Choose 50 to 55mph speed tops would be better.

Can you provide a link to the documentation you used to make this determination?  I would like to read the findings.


Edited by jeromep, 27 October 2015 - 11:56 AM.


#5 OFFLINE   rbort

rbort

    Energi Member

  • C-MAX Energi Member
  • PipPip
  • 4,151 posts
  • Region:U.S. Northeast
  • LocationFranklin, MA
  • My C-MAX:2017
  • Current Vehicle:Cmax Energi Titanium with Moonroof

Posted 27 October 2015 - 12:03 PM

There is no link or documentation for it, its just my experience with batteries for years and knowledge of the subject in general that makes me come to those conclusions.

 

-=>Raja.



#6 OFFLINE   timwil56

timwil56

    Energi Member

  • C-MAX Energi Member
  • PipPip
  • 524 posts
  • Region:U.S. Great Lakes
  • LocationMinnesota
  • My C-MAX:2017
  • Current Vehicle:Fusion SE

Posted 27 October 2015 - 01:47 PM

Not sure I understand the topic, but I believe after the cake has cooled.


  • jeromep likes this

#7 OFFLINE   jeromep

jeromep

    New Member

  • C-MAX Energi Member
  • Pip
  • 76 posts
  • Region:U.S. Pacific Coast
  • LocationWashington
  • My C-MAX:2014
  • Current Vehicle:C-Max Energi

Posted 30 October 2015 - 12:58 PM

There is no link or documentation for it, its just my experience with batteries for years and knowledge of the subject in general that makes me come to those conclusions.

 

-=>Raja.

I ask for platform specific documentation because if what you are claiming is the bonafide truth, then wouldn't Ford advise us of this, much in the same way that they advise about other maintenance items, like oil changes and general maintenance?

 

I have a body of experience myself, and that is having nearly 11 years of Prius ownership and a whole lot of reading and digesting of material prior to that purchase and then afterwards when I was in the honeymoon period of first-time hybrid ownership.

 

Here is my takeaway from that experience.  The Prius has a Ni-MH battery, not Li-ion.  When the Gen2 Prius was introduced Li-ion batteries necessary for the scale and size needed for even a partially electrified vehicle weren't practical.  Ni-MH suffers from memory effect.  The only reason I know this is because I have purchased and used many Ni-MH rechargeable batteries for household use and have experienced memory effect first hand, along with everyone else that has ever purchased and used rechargeable batteries.

 

So, a huge concern of the early Prius adopters was battery life.  Toyota had thought that one through.  The sweet spot for reducing, or possibly eliminating, memory effect with Ni-MH batteries is to never fully charge them and never fully discharge them.  Ok, cool.  But how high is too high for charging and how low is too low for discharging.  Based upon the material I have had access to, in general, the Prius battery is not charged beyond 80% of its potential maximum capacity and is never discharged below 60% of its potential maximum capacity.  So, the battery operates in a rather narrow 20-point range between 60% and 80% of capacity.  Additionally, the battery representation on the dash did show a battery that could be fully charged and fully discharged, however that was only a representation.  The battery icon on the dash was really showing a fully battery at 80% charge and an empty battery at 60% charge.  Additionally there is a computer on board the Prius that does nothing but battery management, monitoring charge levels and battery temperature and then communicating those values to the central computer so it can make judgements and adjustments in how the vehicle behaves, managing cooling fans, etc., to help maintain the battery.

 

I share all of this for a couple of reasons: 1.  To show that the auto manufacturer is really more in control of the behind the scenes behavior of a vehicle, and 2. to illustrate that what we are presented on the dash of our vehicles might not reflect absolute reality.  I also write this to demonstrate that if battery life were actually something we could directly control in our Energi vehicles, we would have received documentation along the same lines as a maintenance schedule, to follow.

 

As it currently stands, hybrid vehicles, conventional or plug-in, regardless of manufacturer, wouldn't be a success if consumers were having to monitor and maintain their high voltage batteries as a course of their daily vehicle usage by going out of their way to drive a certain way, take certain more efficient or less efficient routes between places, by using or not using the EV only mode, plugging them in only a certain times and then going out in the middle of the night to unplug them, etc.  A really well designed vehicle will run as the manufacturer intends with a minimum of maintenance.  In our day and age, oil changes and replacement of wear parts, like tires, brakes, shocks and struts, starter batteries, spark plugs, filters, and windshield wipers are about the only things we have to do to keep our vehicles running well for a very long time.

 

Anyway, do as you wish, but I can't advise new owners to do things which I know aren't material to the long term performance of their vehicles.  As it stands right now, I have no concrete material which would suggest that Ford isn't employing some level of battery management or that they haven't tested the high capacity Li-ion battery extensively prior to releasing this vehicle in the wild.  I also do not know if Ford is using the full capacity of the battery or if their battery management routines include a similar structure as to what Toyota developed many years ago.

 

Anyone provide me greater information about how Ford handles battery management and then I might come to a different conclusion, but until then I keep it simple.  I charge the car up when I can.  I keep the vehicle plugged in while at home.  If my trip requires that I deplete the EV portion of the battery and drive conventional hybrid, I do so.  In the end, this vehicle will wear out and I'll have to go looking for another, so I accept that wear and tear is part of the ownership process and that battery life is a wear and tear item.

 

To the OP, go out and enjoy your vehicle.  Charge it up fully when the opportunity is convenient, use all your EV power when necessary, leave the car plugged in while at home, and just don't over think the vehicle.


  • bschwerdt likes this

#8 OFFLINE   rbort

rbort

    Energi Member

  • C-MAX Energi Member
  • PipPip
  • 4,151 posts
  • Region:U.S. Northeast
  • LocationFranklin, MA
  • My C-MAX:2017
  • Current Vehicle:Cmax Energi Titanium with Moonroof

Posted 30 October 2015 - 04:42 PM

OK Jerome, I respect your opinion on this.  Some extra info for you is that Ford charges their batteries to 4.07-4.10v per cell and drain them to about 3.2v per cell.  It is within the range of Li-ion batteries, but there are documents out there that you can read that tell you about battery life and things to do for well being.  I also believe the Ford car manual tells you to leave the battery somewhere around 60% charge level for longer term storage.  Batteries that spend most of the time at 100% charge level (4.1v max in this case) don't live as long as batteries that spend more time at lower charge levels, 3.85v for example.  Read about it.

 

If you do what you do it will work and you will get some wear and tear, maybe even more than the person who is treating the battery differently but its not evident right away.  Those things take time to show up, and over time different practices will show different results in battery life.

 

Maybe what I do is not that important for many, especially those who lease the car.  But I intend on keeping mine for years, at least until 2020 and if what I do gives me more kwh per charge at the end of the day then it was worth it.

 

-=>Raja.



#9 OFFLINE   rbort

rbort

    Energi Member

  • C-MAX Energi Member
  • PipPip
  • 4,151 posts
  • Region:U.S. Northeast
  • LocationFranklin, MA
  • My C-MAX:2017
  • Current Vehicle:Cmax Energi Titanium with Moonroof

Posted 01 November 2015 - 08:38 AM

Hey Jerome:

 

Here is a link about Li-ion batteries:

 

http://batteryuniver...based_batteries

 

If you read that you will see that batteries that spend most of their time at 100% charge level last less than batteries that spend the same time at lower levels.  I realize that the Cmax fully charged is close to 4.1v per cell and not 4.2, however the table in the link above shows that leaving the car plugged in all the time may not be the best practice.

 

Anyway, do what you wish, just thought to give you some documentation you were inquiring about.

 

-=>Raja.



#10 OFFLINE   cwstnsko

cwstnsko

    New Member

  • C-MAX Energi Member
  • Pip
  • 361 posts
  • Region:Canada Prairie Provinces
  • LocationWinnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
  • My C-MAX:2015
  • Current Vehicle:2015 C-Max Energi

Posted 02 November 2015 - 06:59 AM

To really understand the variation in Li-Ion EV battery life related to how the battery is treated by the driver, spend some time on the Nissan Leaf forums.  Thankfully I think Ford does a little bit better job of protecting us from ourselves :-) 

It might be worth adding that Ford and Toyota do a lot joint development work as it relates to Hybrids, so I expect there is much similarity in the logic of battery protection between the C-Max and the Prius.

 

As far as keeping the car plugged in all the time and storing the car at a high state of charge, the two do not necessarily go hand in hand - this is where go-times and value charging is your friend.

I keep my car plugged in whenever I can so that the car can use it's limited TMS - choosing to use the fans as it sees fit to try and better maintain battery temperatures etc.  I also believe it is best NOT to have the car parked at 100% for extended periods, especially in the heat.  To prevent this, I use value charge profiles in combination with go-times to have the car charge to full just in time for my departure.  My value charge settings are unconventional, and might not work for people who have time variable cost of electricity, but in general, I set the lowest cost value charge window to a time that I know the car will not generally be at that location (middle of the day for home, and middle of the night for work)  This way the car generally waits to charge until a few hours before I need to leave.  It has been a while since I set it up, so I may be forgetting a few details, but the bottom line is my car is normally plugged in except when I am out and about, but it spends most of it's hours during the week sitting at 40-70% charge.  On the weekends, my driving patterns are much less predictable, so it's not quite as dialed in, but I do what I can without being inconvenient. 

 

This is all really part of the game of driving an EV.  Both my Focus Electric and my C-Max Energi are on leases, and I will most likely turn them back to Ford at the end, but I still practice responsible ownership.  You never know when circumstances might change and I might decide to keep one or both of them. If I don't, I consider all of this my practice time to perfect my technique so that when I commit to owning a particular EV long-term, I am well versed in treating it well. Hopefully technology will progress to the point that all I have learned becomes irrelevant :-)



#11 OFFLINE   stevedebi

stevedebi

    Energi Member

  • C-MAX Energi Member
  • PipPip
  • 1,123 posts
  • Region:U.S. Pacific Coast
  • LocationLos Angeles
  • My C-MAX:2014
  • Current Vehicle:2016 C-Max Energi 302A Pkg

Posted 02 November 2015 - 02:59 PM

... Anyone provide me greater information about how Ford handles battery management and then I might come to a different conclusion, but until then I keep it simple.  I charge the car up when I can.  I keep the vehicle plugged in while at home.  If my trip requires that I deplete the EV portion of the battery and drive conventional hybrid, I do so.  In the end, this vehicle will wear out and I'll have to go looking for another, so I accept that wear and tear is part of the ownership process and that battery life is a wear and tear item.

 

To the OP, go out and enjoy your vehicle.  Charge it up fully when the opportunity is convenient, use all your EV power when necessary, leave the car plugged in while at home, and just don't over think the vehicle.

Just a note that Ford and Toyota have different programming of similar technology. My FEH had NiMH batteries also, but they would periodically recalibrate the control software so as to keep the SOC in line with the actual capacity of the battery. They did run between 40 and 66 SOC normally, but could go to 32 or 90 during recalibration events. I've not read that the C-Max hybrid does this, so I think it isn't needed for LiIon.

 

A lot of what you read about the HSD applies, but not all, and the two companies have different experience and methodology.










0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Privacy Policy TERMS OF SERVICE ·