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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Close to 30,000 mi and max battery charge shows only 17 miles


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39 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 08:24 PM

That's it??  You mean 10.7 miles and the battery is completely gone from 100% down to 0%?

 

Either way your burn rate on the battery is too high.  3.7Khw for 10.7 miles that's only about 3 miles per Kwh, so a new battery at that rate would yield you around 17 miles tops.  

 

For me 3.7 kwh would go at least 20 miles.

 

If you burn the battery that hard every time, its also a factor in decreasing its capacity faster than normal wear and tear.

 

-=>Raja.









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#22 OFFLINE   kweemax

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 08:27 PM

I did what Raja suggested by resetting the trip meter and monitoring after a full charge...So far I'm getting 3.7 kWh at 10.7 EV miles.  This is without A/C nor heat turned on.

 

Is there anyone from FORD on this site who can help with this?



#23 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 08:28 PM

I just went back and reviewed your posts.  Sounds to me like you just drive the car in Auto all the time until the battery runs out and then goes to hybrid no matter what speed you're driving highway or side streets.  

 

Am I right?

 

-=>Raja.



#24 OFFLINE   kweemax

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 08:30 PM

That's it??  You mean 10.7 miles and the battery is completely gone from 100% down to 0%?

 

Either way your burn rate on the battery is too high.  3.7Khw for 10.7 miles that's only about 3 miles per Kwh, so a new battery at that rate would yield you around 17 miles tops.  

 

For me 3.7 kwh would go at least 20 miles.

 

If you burn the battery that hard every time, its also a factor in decreasing its capacity faster than normal wear and tear.

 

-=>Raja.

I live in a hilly area as well as mix with freeway driving.



#25 OFFLINE   kweemax

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 08:35 PM

I just went back and reviewed your posts.  Sounds to me like you just drive the car in Auto all the time until the battery runs out and then goes to hybrid no matter what speed you're driving highway or side streets.  

 

Am I right?

 

-=>Raja.

I drive it mostly in EV Mode now.  Although  I have tried experimenting with switching between AUTO, EV, GAS modes but the results are always the same.



#26 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 08:36 PM

OK I understand but me being an engineer I would tell you that you shouldn't be using the battery at high loads on the freeway to climbing steep hills all the time.  Here and there in moderation is OK, but climbing a mountain like mount washington here in the northeast would probably be a bad idea, 8 miles of steep uphill.  And then turning around and going back down to recharge the battery back up from 0% to 100% adds insult to injury, heavy load on the way up and high rate of recharging on the way down a good recipe for a hot battery and some capacity loss.

 

I know Ford doesn't tell you that, but its hard for them to account for all situations.  They just figure the average guy might drive 50/50 battery and ICE and it should last OK, but some people decided to drive 95%/5% battery/ice and wore out the battery in a couple of years.  Not exactly what Ford expected but that's what happens in the field.  

 

Yes for sure maybe it should have been designed better, but you just live and learn.  Its like me writing a program and debugging it so everything works.  And then I give it to someone else and they do something that I didn't expect, and the program crashes.  Over time you can plug the loopholes in the program, once people expose them.

 

-=>Raja.



#27 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 08:40 PM

In EV mode only means you're using the battery 100% first for your trip and when it runs out you go to engine.  It certainly is not best way to do things, especially if you are driving hard (read climbing hills) and fast.  This is pretty much the same as Auto and exactly what I guessed above.

 

I am not surprised at your range now, and if down the road you end up with a new battery you need to alter your driving techniques.  My battery I can still get about 5.5kwh out of it during a warm summer day I'd say in 3 years and 57k miles I've got about 7% loss on the battery.  And to be honest I was no angel, I've done some things I probably shouldn't have during those 3 years with the battery.  Knowing what I know now my next battery if I started over from fresh now would for sure lose less capacity over time.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 03 November 2016 - 09:01 PM.


#28 OFFLINE   David Burnett

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Posted 04 November 2016 - 04:23 AM

The only people that can help you are at capstone law firm. They need at least 50 people to complain before they can do a class action. Right now there are about a dozen.

I did what Raja suggested by resetting the trip meter and monitoring after a full charge...So far I'm getting 3.7 kWh at 10.7 EV miles. This is without A/C nor heat turned on.

Is there anyone from FORD on this site who can help with this?



#29 OFFLINE   bdginmo

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Posted 04 November 2016 - 07:25 AM

10.7 miles at 3.7 kwh is certainly indicative of either overly aggressive driving behaviors (hard acceleration and braking), energy wasting behaviors (hvac and high speeds), or unfavorable environmental factors (hills, cold, etc) or a combination of them. 

 

Similar to Raja, my driving style and conditions typically afford me about 4.5mi/kwh and under ideal conditions it can be as high 5.5mi/kwh. You're getting 2.9mi/kwh. That is very low especially considering it's not very cold yet (not entirely sure on your climate is though) and you said you had hvac off. Hills and cold weather you can't help, but you can adjust your driving style.

 

Whether or not Ford should warranty any and all battery degradation is debatable. Some degradation is expected and Ford should not be on the hook for modest and gradual capacity losses IMHO. However, 3.7 kwh down from a more realistic 5.4 kwh (like new to the point of hybrid mode switch over) is a pretty substantial loss of capacity. I'm not sure what a reasonable warranty claim loss should be, but 80% of original capacity seems to be the definition most academic literature is using for "useful life". Even if you went with a more Ford favoring threshold of 70% you'd still be under that. Just thinking out loud right now...


Edited by bdginmo, 04 November 2016 - 07:26 AM.


#30 OFFLINE   kweemax

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Posted 08 November 2016 - 08:49 PM

Quick answer to your question is NEVER, they will always say the battery degradation you are experiencing is 'normal' because they categorically refuse to define what is abnormal.  I have the identical car (05/2013) at 31,000 miles, consistently only show ~14 estimated miles, the more important number is the kwh delivered per 100% charge.  Should be 5.4 for new battery, you'll likely only get ~4 now due to battery degradation.  I had the car in several times at Ford Kearney Mesa, they did all the testing required by Ford Hotline  (FHL) to confirm the degradation, they were told by FHL to tell me that is normal, not covered under warranty.  I had an extensive call to Ford Customer Service to press them to define what is the warranty, they finally told me it for 8 years/100,000 miles (higher in CA) but they are not allowed to tell customers what the battery capacity/performance might be.  So as long as it can still work as a hybrid (say only 5 miles plug-in estimated miles), they can still claim the battery 'works.' They are forbidden to state the waranteed plug-in capacity, told me that 'information is proprietary.'  Another thread here, we are contacting Capstone Law to represent a class action - they got Nissan to finally declare the capacity for the Leaf and replace their batteries. Don't hold your breath, just enjoy your hybrid  :happy feet:

Please keep me posted on the class action with Capstone Law.  Thanks.



#31 OFFLINE   dontfret

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 10:41 AM

Please keep me posted on the class action with Capstone Law.  Thanks.

happy%20feet.gif Feel free to contact the paralegal Karla at the law firm that may form a class action (Capstone, they got the Nissan Leaf owners settlement) .  They are still researching whether such a case is possible, would be nice for more from here to join in.  They cannot recruit clients or advertise, but you can call her 310-712-8142 to volunteer your information.  or email at karla.Rubalcava@capstonelawyers.com   All Energi owners, Cmax or Fusion should volunteer.  From what David previously posted, call her so they can see if there is enough to warrant a class action.  They will not take any action until they think there is class to certify.  This can take years to settle, don't wait to see what happens.  VOTE NOW!!!!



#32 OFFLINE   kweemax

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 05:44 PM

In EV mode only means you're using the battery 100% first for your trip and when it runs out you go to engine.  It certainly is not best way to do things, especially if you are driving hard (read climbing hills) and fast.  This is pretty much the same as Auto and exactly what I guessed above.

 

I am not surprised at your range now, and if down the road you end up with a new battery you need to alter your driving techniques.  My battery I can still get about 5.5kwh out of it during a warm summer day I'd say in 3 years and 57k miles I've got about 7% loss on the battery.  And to be honest I was no angel, I've done some things I probably shouldn't have during those 3 years with the battery.  Knowing what I know now my next battery if I started over from fresh now would for sure lose less capacity over time.

 

-=>Raja.

I have been driving the same way since I purchased the car (new from the dealership). I was consistently getting 22-25 EV miles at 5.5 kWh for a little over a year.  Not long after that is when I noticed the degradation in the battery down 17mi and eventually to around 13mi now and the capacity down from 5.5 kWh to 3.7 kWh.  Yes, the car is still driveable and gas is still fairly cheap, but what bothers me the most is the lack of understanding and knowledge from Ford on how to solve this issue.



#33 OFFLINE   kweemax

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 05:50 PM

happy%20feet.gif Feel free to contact the paralegal Karla at the law firm that may form a class action (Capstone, they got the Nissan Leaf owners settlement) .  They are still researching whether such a case is possible, would be nice for more from here to join in.  They cannot recruit clients or advertise, but you can call her 310-712-8142 to volunteer your information.  or email at karla.Rubalcava@capstonelawyers.com   All Energi owners, Cmax or Fusion should volunteer.  From what David previously posted, call her so they can see if there is enough to warrant a class action.  They will not take any action until they think there is class to certify.  This can take years to settle, don't wait to see what happens.  VOTE NOW!!!!

Thank you for the information.  I will be contacting them.



#34 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 06:58 PM

 

 

I have been driving the same way since I purchased the car (new from the dealership). I was consistently getting 22-25 EV miles at 5.5 kWh for a little over a year.  Not long after that is when I noticed the degradation in the battery down 17mi and eventually to around 13mi now and the capacity down from 5.5 kWh to 3.7 kWh.  Yes, the car is still driveable and gas is still fairly cheap, but what bothers me the most is the lack of understanding and knowledge from Ford on how to solve this issue.

 

I'm still driving mine and 3 1/3 years later and 57k miles I'm still getting 5.5kwh out of the battery.  Its how you treat it that makes a big difference.  I tried for the past 2+ years to tell people what and what not to do, and I most consistently got answers like this one here (and I quote the most recent):

 

 

 

rbort, on 14 Nov 2016 - 10:41 AM, said:

snapback.png

If you keep up that pace your battery will lose capacity rapidly within the next year, just word to the wise about that. Driving in Auto on the highway at 72mph until the battery runs out is a bad thing, plus Florida heat and recharging while hot and battery hotter than necessary won't help either.

Soon I'll be in Florida, coming there for a couple of weeks vacation smile.png

-=>Raja.

Well hopefully the bumper to bumper until 48k will prove useful if thats the case. I have no problem being the pain-in-the-ass to Ford over a degraded battery. I have read the owners manual and it says nothing about no EV highway driving or charging a hot battery and i'll hold them to it. I'll live on the faith that Ford properly developed this car and the battery systems. And as far as the charging hot battery topic goes, if that were the case then any public charging station would be obsolete, because thats the point to drive until you need to charge which the battery would always be charging hot. Whats the point of driving somewhere only to not charge a hot battery. Nonsense to me. Also why and how would driving at highway speeds be a bad thing. Sure i might get less range but a PHEV with a 20 miles range is most likely getting drained daily. Is my cell phone battery going to go bad quicker if i discharge it faster daily playing music vs just sitting in standby? And this is coming from a guy who just upgraded my phone earlier this year from a Samsung S2 to the S7. So i am prone to making things last a good long time. I got a 48 month loan, 46 more payments and the Energi will be gone if i dont satisfy the urge earlier to give the new Fusion Sport a try. But if it takes a shit before then it'll be dealt with accordingly at that time. For now its enjoyment for me.

.

This particular quote reminds me of donfret's words actually a couple of years ago, if I recall correctly.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 15 November 2016 - 07:00 PM.


#35 OFFLINE   Tom_NC_1

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Posted 16 November 2016 - 05:07 AM

I have been driving the same way since I purchased the car (new from the dealership). I was consistently getting 22-25 EV miles at 5.5 kWh for a little over a year.  Not long after that is when I noticed the degradation in the battery down 17mi and eventually to around 13mi now and the capacity down from 5.5 kWh to 3.7 kWh.  Yes, the car is still driveable and gas is still fairly cheap, but what bothers me the most is the lack of understanding and knowledge from Ford on how to solve this issue.

 

I had a quick drop in HVB capacity from 5.5kWh to about 4.5kWh after after 2.5 years. Since my HVB capacity loss was noticed following a hot summer where the HVB became overheated multiple times I attributed the loss in HVB capacity to the overheating. In the next year with even hotter weather I took extensive measures to prevent HVB overheating and have seen no additional HVB capacity losses. I was wondering if your capacity loss issue might also be related to HVB overheating?

It sucks that extra effort is needed to keep the HVB healthy during periods of hot weather. The reality is that I believe that is a requirement due to the car's poor HVB cooling capability.

 

Tom



#36 OFFLINE   bro1999

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Posted 16 November 2016 - 05:14 AM

I had a quick drop in HVB capacity from 5.5kWh to about 4.5kWh after after 2.5 years. Since my HVB capacity loss was noticed following a hot summer where the HVB became overheated multiple times I attributed the loss in HVB capacity to the overheating. In the next year with even hotter weather I took extensive measures to prevent HVB overheating and have seen no additional HVB capacity losses. I was wondering if your capacity loss issue might also be related to HVB overheating?

It sucks that extra effort is needed to keep the HVB healthy during periods of hot weather. The reality is that I believe that is a requirement due to the car's poor HVB cooling capability.

 

Tom

 

And Ford knew overheating was an issue....that's why they programmed the 113F cutoff. And they probably knew degradation would be experienced in Energis routinely hitting the 113F cutoff point. But instead of standing by their car, they decided to lock up the battery capacity warranty specifications in the "proprietary info" vault and let Energi owners hang out to dry and drive around vehicles suffering 30-40%+ degradation. That is unacceptable, which is why I hope that law firm gets enough owners to come forward.

 

Ford is trying to just sweep the Energi degradation issues under the rug and make them quietly go away. No money out of pocket for doing that. Replacing hundreds if not thousands of HV batteries under warranty? $$$$$$$. That is why Ford wants this issue to die just as fast as the HV batteries themselves. Disgraceful really. That's why I will not buy another Ford product.


Edited by bro1999, 16 November 2016 - 05:18 AM.

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#37 OFFLINE   kweemax

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Posted 21 November 2016 - 09:20 PM

And Ford knew overheating was an issue....that's why they programmed the 113F cutoff. And they probably knew degradation would be experienced in Energis routinely hitting the 113F cutoff point. But instead of standing by their car, they decided to lock up the battery capacity warranty specifications in the "proprietary info" vault and let Energi owners hang out to dry and drive around vehicles suffering 30-40%+ degradation. That is unacceptable, which is why I hope that law firm gets enough owners to come forward.

 

Ford is trying to just sweep the Energi degradation issues under the rug and make them quietly go away. No money out of pocket for doing that. Replacing hundreds if not thousands of HV batteries under warranty? $$$$$$$. That is why Ford wants this issue to die just as fast as the HV batteries themselves. Disgraceful really. That's why I will not buy another Ford product.

Unfortunately it will take a class action law suit to get Ford to acknowledge and correct the issue...



#38 OFFLINE   c-maxed

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Posted 05 December 2016 - 12:12 PM

I appreciate the details in this post.  I have a 2013 with about 50K miles and my EV range has suddenly dropped from about 20 to 12.  I'm going to use your suggestion here and see what the KWh I'm getting from a full charge.  Seems I've degraded about 40-50% in one big step.



#39 OFFLINE   finder9

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 06:56 PM

Thanks for the info above from everyone.  My 2013 has dropped from 26 to 13 with 32,000 miles.  Ford says battery fine.  I know cold weather can impact it but so much?  I sent an email to Capstone as well.

 

Jack



#40 OFFLINE   bdginmo

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 02:30 PM

Thanks for the info above from everyone.  My 2013 has dropped from 26 to 13 with 32,000 miles.  Ford says battery fine.  I know cold weather can impact it but so much?  I sent an email to Capstone as well.

 

Jack

 

13 miles in the winter is normal. What kwh are you getting on a full charge?


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