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Guest Message by DevFuse

Get you C-MAX Energi Registered in the official Ford Authorized Registry. More here.


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HVB Long term best practices


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65 replies to this topic

#41 OFFLINE   engnrng

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 08:12 PM

ODB II sensor data from the car, its logged into an xcell spreadsheet with all the parameters.  If you want to look at one of those xcell files, pm me your email and I can forward you a copy.

 

-=>Raja.

Tried to send a message, system says you are not accepting any messages.  If you pm me your email, I can send mine to you.

 

Thanks!









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#42 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 08:13 PM

I thought it was sort of relevant to give you some idea about stuff but that's OK.  Ford expects some degradation in the battery a certain percentage per year and they consider it "normal" and within the warranty, in other words not covered.  I just figured if the battery loses 20% capacity (one of the guys here had an issue like this, only getting 4.4kwh out of a full charge that is supposed to yield 5.5kwh), would you be happy with that?  Most likely not and I would expect that this might happen before the other stuff you listed, the engine, the MG, the inverter, even the 12v battery.  I mentioned my Ranger as in 17 years of ownership its still doing OK, and the engine has 75k on it.  Cmax engine should take a few years to rack 75k on it due to EV driving, so it will most likely outlast the traction battery.  Does that make sense now?

 

Cleared some PM's from my inbox now, I didn't realize it was limited to only 25...

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 08 April 2015 - 07:28 AM.


#43 OFFLINE   stevedebi

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Posted 09 April 2015 - 10:01 AM

The warranty for hybrid components in California is not determined by Ford.  It is set by state law at 10 years, 150k miles, part of the CARB legislation (California Air Resources Board), so it has nothing to do with expected life, has to do with keeping the emission control components working properly.  There are other states that have also enacted the same type of legislation, and others conform to the 8 year 100k Federal statutes set by the EPA.  These warranties have nothing to do with weather or operating environments.  By the way, this same 150k warranty applied to my 2004 Prius when I bought it.

Actually, it is determined by Ford. CARB sets the requirements for a car to be considered as meeting their requirements for SULEV and etc. If the manufacturer wants to get that rating, they have to warrant the car for 10/150. If they didn't need that length, they could opt for 8/100. So the manufacturers determine if they want to meet certain CARB requirements.

 

But the car manufacturers need the plug ins to meet their CARB sales requirements, so if at all possible they meet the strictest specifications, which tie them to the 10/150. So if the car meets the other requirements (having to do with being more pollution efficient than certain percentages of vehicles sold that year), they will chose the longer warranty. I haven't checked, but I suspect the new Prius (non plug in) may now be 8/100. My 2008 was also 10/150, but cars have gotten much more efficient since 2008 - or 2004.

 

I think the federal warranty requirement is for 8/100, unless it is a CARB state.

 

I learned this when I went to the CA website after finding out that the C-Max hybrid is only 8/100.



#44 OFFLINE   stevedebi

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Posted 09 April 2015 - 10:07 AM

Will keeping the cover that is supposed to hide things in the back of the car closed impact the battery temperature?

The battery is cooled by the cabin air. There are two vents in the back on either side above the wheel wells, and they are not covered by the rear cargo cover. You should not block those vents. Ford did not put active cooling in the Energi, so the cabin air is all it has.

 

I believe the fan that runs when the battery is charging draws air from the outside, but it is not used when driving.



#45 OFFLINE   GaryG

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Posted 09 April 2015 - 02:26 PM

The battery is cooled by the cabin air. There are two vents in the back on either side above the wheel wells, and they are not covered by the rear cargo cover. You should not block those vents. Ford did not put active cooling in the Energi, so the cabin air is all it has.

 

I believe the fan that runs when the battery is charging draws air from the outside, but it is not used when driving.

 

Steve, cabin air is only used when the HVAC is on. Outside air is used in all other cases when the HVAC is off.

 

Gary



#46 OFFLINE   stevedebi

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Posted 09 April 2015 - 04:18 PM

Steve, cabin air is only used when the HVAC is on. Outside air is used in all other cases when the HVAC is off.

 

Gary

Gary,

Do they turn on the same fan that is used when charging, if the HVAC is not turned on? I presume this brings in outside air.



#47 OFFLINE   GaryG

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Posted 09 April 2015 - 04:56 PM

Gary,

Do they turn on the same fan that is used when charging, if the HVAC is not turned on? I presume this brings in outside air.

 

If charging when the A/C or heater is on (Supercharging), you are using cabin air. I do this all the time. In fact, Ford recommends you do this in hot and cold weather. It protects the battery and increases EV range and is called thermal balancing. There is no need for this in mild weather, but you can still Supercharge with the power on while charging. I discovered this, this Winter here in So. Florida.

 

Gary 



#48 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 10 April 2015 - 06:52 AM

You can't really charge with the heater on in New England in the winter, its too cold unlike FL a) the heater will take most of the charging if not all and then some, and b) the engine may start anyways even while plugged in.

 

AC is alot easier demand on the system, and its not as hot up here compared to down south.  Good idea if you're sitting in the car while its outside baking in the sun, not to supercharge, but at least to get the car cooled down so that the AC current draw is about 625w.  At that point once the charge starts to drop off from 3+ kwh coming out of the chargepoint charger, I disconnect and take off as its not worth it for me to wait an extra 20 minutes or so to get the car to 100% with the AC on.  I may only do it if that extra 1/2 mile range is going to make a difference, i.e. I'm going home and home is 29 miles away, otherwise if its just less than that say 10, 15, 20 miles or whatever, then I'll just save my 20 minutes for something else as I have plenty of battery to get home.

 

-=>Raja.



#49 OFFLINE   dontfret

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 03:38 PM

You can't really charge with the heater on in New England in the winter, its too cold unlike FL a) the heater will take most of the charging if not all and then some, and b) the engine may start anyways even while plugged in.

 

Are you talking 110 charger?  Cause with my Level 2 240V it will charge and heat just fine.



#50 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 04:02 PM

Yes at 20 degree weather nope it can't do it even the 240 V charger, charging stops when you turn on the heat and it starts draining the battery. If it's any colder than that the engine even starts.

Don't forget the preheating the cabin even at 240 volt cannot even attain 72° inside the cabin when it's 20° outside. It sure can take the edge off but you're not going to get the car heated up all the way. Works a lot better if it's warmer outside.

-=>Raja.

#51 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 19 April 2015 - 06:25 PM

Thought I might update this post with an example of points #1 & #2.

 

Friday I went down to Needham to get my eyeglasses.  I was able to get into Muzi Ford to charge my car there after a 17.5 mile trip there back to 100%.  Drove home, 18.5 miles and got there with 33% battery left.  I left it as is and that night we went to Milford to the 99 for dinner 7.8 miles away.

 

I recharged in Milford back to 100% and went home.  The next day I went to Home Depot and back, 6.5 miles each way.  Left it as is last night with 27% charge.  

 

Today I went to BJ's 3.2 miles away, and then back to the Big Y 3 miles away and got there with 1% charge and filled it back up to 95% (I was ready to go before it was 100% full).  Drove it home, tonight it sits at 85%.

 

So, what's the difference?  If we start from a full charge from Muzi Ford, I ended up recharging twice with all the trips that I made from Friday until Sunday night.  If I was to recharge at every opportunity back to 100%, then I would have charged back up 5 times.

 

Will it make a difference, hard to say in the short term but I'm doing this tactic to lessen the charge/discharge cycles on mine over time.

 

-=>Raja. 


Edited by rbort, 19 April 2015 - 06:26 PM.


#52 OFFLINE   P=E/t

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 02:01 AM

For those who wish to really dig in and geek out:

http://batteryuniver...s_li_ion_to_die

As for me, I love this stuff. Prolly coulda been quite happy as a battery design engineer.

#53 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 06:35 AM

Nice article, thanks for the link :)  I solidifies what we're talking about.  The bottom line is that all Cmax batteries are going to degrade over time, but you hope that yours can degrade a little less than others via best practices.  So what can you do?

 

a) Even though you can drive faster (up to 4 bars on battery), limit the discharge of the battery to 2 bars or less.

b) Do not leave the battery fully charged at 4.1v all the time, best to charge ready on departure when you need the full capacity.

c) Supercharging (Tm: GG) while may give you an extra mile of range is not good for the batteries.

d) Try to keep the battery cool and not heat soak the car as much as possible (park in the shade or a garage whenever possible).

e) Hover the battery around 60% charge when the car is not in use, and don't always charge to 100% unless you need it.

f) If you do charge up to 100%, combine smaller trips to use the battery charge before recharging instead of charging back to 100% after every use.

g) When draining the battery, try not to go below 20% charge level if possible.  Sometimes you need it, but its best not to drain it all the way (even though I've been guilty of that on several occasions in the past), meaning don't dig into the hybrid battery more than necessary.  At 0% HVB 100% hybrid battery you are at 21.5% charge level.

 

I may have forgotten something besides the points above that came to mind.

 

-=>Raja.



#54 OFFLINE   P=E/t

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 09:31 AM

Each point is important and useful. From what I can glean, (d) is most important of all.

Avoid heat soak, especially with high SOC.



#55 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 21 June 2015 - 06:31 PM

Just came across this article link today in the Ford Fusion forum, pretty much corroborates everything I said in this thread here - figured its a good value to add a link to it:

 

http://www.plugincar...car-107938.html

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 21 June 2015 - 06:41 PM.


#56 OFFLINE   Perry Knopp

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Posted 03 March 2017 - 11:31 AM

 Thanks......figured some of this stuff out for myself.....I have three routes I can take to work. 95% interstate (70 mph). This is the fastest but I rarely took it as it's a boring drive. 60 mph 4 lane 80% of the way. (I generally went this way as it travels along the Ohio river and the scenery was better) or through town. It's the shortest as far as miles but the longest trip in terms of time. It's mostly 35-45 mph though with opportunities to use the regenerative braking. Its the way I have been going.

 

 I got my windows tinted and will keep the shade closed during the summer. I also installed the rain covers so I can crack the windows. There has to be a way to provide better cooling to the batteries. My car will be sitting outside it's entire life.



#57 OFFLINE   dougTFC

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 04:28 PM

I've seen lots of posts about not draining the battery completely if possible.

But I drive approx 100km a day, and it is VERY easy to drain the battery in the first 30% of my drive day.

In fact I hardly EVER drive less than 25km anywhere, so should I not be taking advantage of my battery option?

 

Thanks 



#58 OFFLINE   Tom_NC_1

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 04:55 AM

I've seen lots of posts about not draining the battery completely if possible.

But I drive approx 100km a day, and it is VERY easy to drain the battery in the first 30% of my drive day.

In fact I hardly EVER drive less than 25km anywhere, so should I not be taking advantage of my battery option?

 

Thanks 

 

You should not worry about draining the HVB. Even at 0% SOC per the MFT screen the HVB is not completely drained. At actual minimum SOC is about 15%. The MFT display only shows usable capacity. Draining the pack has not caused any problems and I often use all the HVB capacity twice per day. I did have some lost capacity in the HVB but it was directly related to overheating the HVB during hot summer weather. 

My current practice is to drive EV as often as I can and charge up to full whenever possible. I minimize EV usage at interstate highway speeds and limit charging and EV driving in hot weather. My HVB capacity has been stable since the end of the summer of 2015 when current HVB management practices were started.

 

Tom


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#59 OFFLINE   bdginmo

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 06:39 AM

We've had a couple of reports of high mileage Energi's purchased used in which the previous owner never or rarely charged and the HVB had no significant loss of capacity. So far the consensus is that the problem is high temperatures in combination with a high SoC. I leave mine at 0% SoC (as displayed by MFT) for weeks at a time during the hottest part of the summer.



#60 OFFLINE   new2energi

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Posted 29 April 2017 - 05:35 PM

 

The Ford warranty, at 8 years/100k miles or 10 years/150k miles, is interesting and surprising. Here are typical discharge cycles versus depth-of-discharge for Lithium Ion batteries; most sources list something similar:

 

Depth of Discharge          Discharge Cycles until battery capacity = 70%

100% DoD                        300 – 500
50% DoD                          1,200 – 1,500
25% DoD                          2,000 – 2,500
10% DoD                          3,750 – 4,700
 
This chart is from the article I posted above.
 
Well. Even if a C-Max is used 6 days a week, for 15-20 miles, that's 300 discharges a year. Even at 50% DoD, we're talking 5 years to a big problem with range. In my experience with the 2003 Prius and 2008 Prius, no change in performance happened at all, the entire time I owned each car. We had the 2003 in the family until just recently. Granted, these were not plug-in cars but they still have similar batteries. And now we see Ford offering a warranty that covers more than 10 times the worst-case scenario above.
 

 

Just bought a used 2013 Energi. Odomoter shows 82,000 miles, of which 16,300 EV and 1,100 regen. I'm not sure how many of those "EV miles" I need to discount to find the "true" EV miles (miles propelled by electricity charged from the cord... not miles coasting with the ICE off)... let's say 14,000 to be safe.

Based on the average of 5 full discharges (range 5.1-5.4), the car is still pulling about 5.3 kWh from the battery from full to empty.

I'm currently getting about 4.0 miles/kWh. So assuming the previous owner got similar efficiency, that's about 3,500 full charging cycle equivalents. If this is the original battery, then there's been almost zero battery degradation. Certainly not anything like what this poor physics prof at Do The Math blog reported in 2015 on his Energi, which had degraded to 80% within 2 years.
 

Now I'm wondering if this battery has been replaced or something... is this extremely abnormal? I suppose a call to corporate would be the only way to find out...










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