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Guest Message by DevFuse

Get you C-MAX Energi Registered in the official Ford Authorized Registry. More here.


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Empower Screen Linear or Non-Linear?


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71 replies to this topic

#41 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 13 February 2015 - 01:19 PM

Yes it can come on in EV mode but the threshold for it to come on is lower in EV now mode.  You can almost always get the engine to turn on if you turn on defrost or heat is cold weather.

 

-=>Raja.









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#42 OFFLINE   P=E/t

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 07:03 AM

OK, time for an Auto lesson.

 

Auto is the default mode.  In auto the car is in EV mode unless you step on the gas quite hard, past 4 bars in warmer weather or 3 to 3 1/2 bars is really cold temps of the winter.  If you go over the higher threshold in auto, the engine will start to give you additional passing power or get out of the way emergency power.

 

 

 

Congrats again on the 50mpg trip, I've done some of those some people here sometimes think its not possible but it is if you use your battery wisely on longer trips, never on uphills, more on downhills to stretch it alot further than normal at the right speeds as well....

 

....

 

Do not worry about traffic and lights, this car excels in traffic and eats it alive.  Just think when you're stopped stuck in traffic or at a light everyone around you is brum brum brum idling burning gas and you're sitting there dead quiet.  You could be in traffic for 2 hours stop and go and still be on the hvb.  They on the other hand maybe wasted 2 gallons of fuel plus.

 

....

 

Use EV later when on the highway to preserve the main battery for slower speeds.  However, in the end you must use up all of the battery before arrival, 

 

-=>Raja.

Thank you Raja for this detailed and well-considered explanation of Auto mode and other things! You could (and should) teach a class on hybrid driving, at least with the Fords you are familiar with. I've just highlighted a few of your points that I want to comment on, but rest assured that I have studied all the details of what you explain!

 

That first bit makes sense, that Auto is essentially EV until you ask for more power than the threshold. And that explains the massive battery draw when using Auto at highway speeds!

 

Yes, 50 mpg seems readily attainable, though it seems there is a finite trip length where this is possible. If we are parsing out the battery intelligently, or perhaps using it up in Auto on the highway in one straight shot and then settling down into "regular hybrid" driving, we will eventually enter into some steady state mpg. I'm pretty sure I could beat 42 mpg at that point, being an experienced Prius driver, but there is certainly some ceiling to it and I suspect it lies below 50. Then there's always P&G of course, but I've always wondered about the safety and also the potential increased wear on the car with the P&G techniques. Besides gliding down steep highway hills, I don't usually do them.

 

And then there's your assertion, "this car excels in traffic and eats it alive." Ah, yes, and that's where I'm still a bit traumatized by my Prius. You see, with such a smaller battery in the Prius, and also with the Prius software being positively obsessed with keeping the catalytic converters hot, the ICE would come on in all kinds of situations where, to my way of thinking, it shouldn't have. Three examples in particular used to drive me bonkers:

-At the slightest extra bit of pressure on the gas pedal over what was deemed appropriate by the software, the ICE would come on. And of course this pressure level gets ever more critical the lower the SOC of the battery gets.

-In cold weather, the ICE would never truly warm up on my 9 mile commute, so it would run for much of the way there. This rendered the batery and hybrid system an afterthought, in practical terms.

-And the worst of all--after some highway running, when the ICE was at operating temperature, if I hit traffic and got into stop-and-go, the ICE would often turn on and keep running. When it was already hot! You'd have to come to a complete stop for over half a minute to get it to shut off. As we all have experienced, such lengthy full stops often do not occur in stop-and-go highway congestion; you keep inching along, speeding up and slowing down in that maddening sine wave of motion that seems completely random. But 30 second full stops? Not possible to achieve without sending the people behind you into a rage.

 

So there I'd be, in a warmed-up car with a full battery, wasting gas like any other Luddite.

 

And that, folks, is the best of all the many reasons I love driving the C-Max Energi! You want the ICE off, you turn the ICE off. Brilliant.

 

Rick


Edited by P=E/t, 14 February 2015 - 07:03 AM.


#43 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 07:19 AM

100% agree Rick!! My brother has the Prius in SD and I HATE the fact the the engine just starts up on its own and you don't have any control over it.  With our Cmax, you can decide when you want to start the engine or when you don't want to and have an EV only experience.  Yes the Prius may get more miles per gallon on average, but using the plug in power with the Cmax and doing all kinds of highway miles for me still yields an overall lifetime mpg number of over 65, better than the Prius not due to the hybrid mode but due to plug in power.

 

You never want to do Auto on the highway and burn the whole battery at highway speeds first and then go to hybrid mode, that's not an efficient use of your battery.  If you were going to a 300 mile trip and have a full battery to start, use the battery at first until you get to the highway, then use EV later.  Every time there is traffic on the highway, switch to Auto and turn the ICE off, do this when speeds are 40mph or less, once you break through 40 then switch to EV later and restart the engine. 

 

Every time you're getting off the highway when you coast to slow down for the ramp switch to Auto and use the battery to get off, go to the bathroom, go get something to eat, whatever and until you get back on the highway.

 

Eventually you either drain the entire battery at slow speeds or there is some left over before you arrive to your destination.  If the latter switch to Auto and use up the battery to 0% by the time you arrive.  If still on the highway slow down to maximize the EV battery benefit and range.

 

If its a 300 mile trip and there is no getting off and there is no traffic, then about 50 miles before your exit to your destination start using the battery to go downhills and maintain your speed.  Switch to auto in the downhills when the power is less than 2 bars and switch back to EV later when the power level wants to go over 2 bars.  By switching back and forward, you can drain the battery slowly but only at low power output you will get more miles out of the battery that way.  Its almost like the reverse of charging the battery on the highway, by switching back into EV later with a lower battery % you are lowering the engine charge level on the battery.

 

Oh yeah, almost forgot, I'm not a huge fan at all of pulse and glide.  Its just crazy, too much work, uncomfortable ride, and stress on you and people behind you.  Speed up, slow down, speed up, slow down.  I find it much more enjoyable to set the CC, sit back, relax and call a friend to chat and pass the time.  I also believe it would be more wear and tear on your car.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 14 February 2015 - 07:23 AM.


#44 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 07:30 AM

Rick:

 

Here is a 485 mile trip back from VA where I did the above:

 

http://fordcmaxenerg...t&attach_id=704

 

48MPG not bad with only 1 charge from departure.

 

-=>Raja.



#45 OFFLINE   P=E/t

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 01:41 PM

Rick:

 

Here is a 485 mile trip back from VA where I did the above:

 

http://fordcmaxenerg...t&attach_id=704

 

48MPG not bad with only 1 charge from departure.

 

-=>Raja.

That's a dang impressive trip.

 

Funny, I was using the HVB to go upgrade on highways, to avoid the severe mpg hit; yet as you suggest it seems a better strategy to bias towards battery use when going downgrade, to enjoy low power output and increased HVB range.

 

Odd that I didn't think of that, since that's what I always did in the Prius.

 

I never did much P&G either, just a few brief experiments in the Prius, and never in the Energi yet. Don't plan to for the reasons you cite.

 

And yeah, aiming for 0% at arrival is a pretty high-level Energi game. These cars are so fun, they actually negate the stress and annoyance of all the traffic and poor drivers out there.


Edited by P=E/t, 14 February 2015 - 01:41 PM.


#46 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 03:27 PM

 

 

And yeah, aiming for 0% at arrival is a pretty high-level Energi game. These cars are so fun, they actually negate the stress and annoyance of all the traffic and poor drivers out there.

 

I totally agree.  I went from trying to get there as fast as I can, to trying to get there as efficient as I can.  Due to this traffic doesn't bother me as much now as it did before, and I don't mind taking route 1 instead of 95 when its all jammed up to use EV power and get around traffic for example.

 

I think I said before, but watching the charge level % on the leaf screen in the center console will teach you some invaluable lessons in regards to how much % you need to get home from exit 19 on 495 highway, how much you need to get home from exit 20 off of route 128, how much do you need to drive to the Big-Y, or the 99 restaurant, or go to the movies in Patriot's place.  Armed with this information you can plan you engine runs when coming home from a long trip to make it the lat 10 or 20 miles on EV power via the country road and arrive home with 0% charge level.  Its a fun "video game" so to speak which keeps you entertained and thinking the whole way home.  There has been situations where I thought I HAD to turn off the AC to make it, or I need to slow down to make it, based on distance left and battery % left.  Its such a huge reward when you creep into your driveway on hybrid power in EV+ mode without having to have started the engine to get there.

 

-=>Raja.



#47 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 14 February 2015 - 03:32 PM

I just bought this:

 

http://www.ebay.com/...058089393&rt=nc

 

Sometimes when I'm coming home late at night I'm on that country road going 35mph.  Some people like to go faster, I'd like to use it to say something like "Please pass me, top speed 35mph" so they don't have to wait for me as many times I feel bad and turn off to let them by.  This might help.

 

-=>Raja.



#48 OFFLINE   P=E/t

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 04:24 PM

I just bought this:

 

http://www.ebay.com/...058089393&rt=nc

 

Sometimes when I'm coming home late at night I'm on that country road going 35mph.  Some people like to go faster, I'd like to use it to say something like "Please pass me, top speed 35mph" so they don't have to wait for me as many times I feel bad and turn off to let them by.  This might help.

 

-=>Raja.

Great find. I'm afraid of what I'd say to the tailgaters though.

Would it be polite, or would it be insulting?

https://www.youtube....h?v=i1leDAwjtto



#49 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 04:31 PM

Polite of course!

-=^Raja.

#50 OFFLINE   P=E/t

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 04:53 PM

More NRG gauge stuff.

 

This morning it was 0 F. I wanted to run the ICE to get some heat, so I tried a little experiment.

My commute is 9 miles plus or minus, depending on how I go, so the ICE wouldn't get as warmed up as it would on the highway. But I ran it for about half the trip. I watched the coolant temp gauge intermittently. It came up to less than the halfway point, meaning the ICE never reached its steady state operating temperature. But it came close.

 

For the rest of the trip, on EV Later, I "carried around" that hot liquid, yet if I used the cabin heater in these frigid temperatures, the "climate" gauge read 4-5 kWh. So obviously, the software still calculates the need to keep adding energy to the radiator coolant, to keep it hot enough to heat the cabin.

 

Also, I watched the rate at which the radiator coolant cooled off; it took quite some time, and was still well over that first bar when I pulled into work and the garage there.

 

The building garage I park in was 60 F today. So as I left, I turned the cabin heat on to 70 F and used EV Later.

She pulled 5 kWh for as long as I left the heat on, and the interesting thing was, the coolant temp gauge dropped off extremely fast once I turned off the cabin heat. I mean, whatever I had managed to store up was gone, right quick.

 

This leads me to hypothesize:

1- That the electric coils only heat the radiator coolant over only a small surface area of the total available.

2- That it's possible that the radiator coolant isn't being pumped around when in EV Later, just heated by electric coils in the area of the heater ducting. Or maybe it's being circulated, but doesn't get anywhere neat as hot as when the ICE runs. Anyone know?

 

The practical conclusion is that if it's extremely cold and we want to heat the cabin, we might as well run the ICE for a time. It's not just a matter of range; it's a matter of effectiveness.



#51 OFFLINE   jdbob

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 05:20 PM

When using the engine the coolant goes through everything. When not using the engine it bypasses the engine and the radiator (which of course is the bulk of the system). I don't know how the PCM decides which mode to use, maybe it's based on EV NOW or not.



#52 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 05:36 PM

Hmmm...You're going to hate me. I left this morning it was 4F and drove 19.5 miles no heat got 140mpge and got there with 3 miles of range left. I feel I'm king of no heat now, in other words the cold no longer bothers me. I walked 2 miles to a store and back while my car charged back up to 100% for the next leg of the trip. Brilliant sunshine crunchy snow below your feet it was refreshing for me. Anyway...

The coolant will never get to 1/2 way in cold weather if you are driving on slower roads and the engine is cyclic on and off. I saw this with temps areound 12F. If its not at halfway some of the battery is used to assist the engine, you saw it in the climate screen.

The engine circulates All the coolant, electric heat is only in a small closed loop where the heater core is. If the engine starts and the rest of the coolant is cold but you warmed up the car with electric heat, it flushes out the heater core into the radiator and there is a sudden coolant temp drop. Try it sometime you will see what I mean.

If the engine is hot and you shut it off by going to ev mode, you have isolated the coolant and the rest of the engine coolant is useless to you. The car is only using the heater core coolant which cools quite quickly when you blow outside air through it and the car will supply electric power to keep the isolated coolant hot. The rest of the engine coolant is waste heat, doesn't matter if it takes a long time to cool its irrelevant. Unless the engine runs then it doesn't circulate. That is why if you shut the engine off even if on the highway and coolant is 1/2 way up at operating temperature, you may only pull heat for 2 minutes at Most before the electric heat kicks in and you see the kwh draw in the climate screen. Been there done that I know this thing like inside out now, love the car always looking to learn more about it!

-=^Raja.

#53 OFFLINE   P=E/t

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Posted 16 February 2015 - 06:49 PM

Hmmm...You're going to hate me. I left this morning it was 4F and drove 19.5 miles no heat got 140mpge and got there with 3 miles of range left. I feel I'm king of no heat now, in other words the cold no longer bothers me. I walked 2 miles to a store and back while my car charged back up to 100% for the next leg of the trip. Brilliant sunshine crunchy snow below your feet it was refreshing for me. Anyway...

The coolant will never get to 1/2 way in cold weather if you are driving on slower roads and the engine is cyclic on and off. I saw this with temps areound 12F. If its not at halfway some of the battery is used to assist the engine, you saw it in the climate screen.

The engine circulates All the coolant, electric heat is only in a small closed loop where the heater core is. If the engine starts and the rest of the coolant is cold but you warmed up the car with electric heat, it flushes out the heater core into the radiator and there is a sudden coolant temp drop. Try it sometime you will see what I mean.

If the engine is hot and you shut it off by going to ev mode, you have isolated the coolant and the rest of the engine coolant is useless to you. The car is only using the heater core coolant which cools quite quickly when you blow outside air through it and the car will supply electric power to keep the isolated coolant hot. The rest of the engine coolant is waste heat, doesn't matter if it takes a long time to cool its irrelevant. Unless the engine runs then it doesn't circulate. That is why if you shut the engine off even if on the highway and coolant is 1/2 way up at operating temperature, you may only pull heat for 2 minutes at Most before the electric heat kicks in and you see the kwh draw in the climate screen. Been there done that I know this thing like inside out now, love the car always looking to learn more about it!

-=^Raja.

Yes no matter what other NRG records there are, you are King of No Heat!

Good detailed description of what happens with heat, Raja, thanks. "isolated the coolant" makes so much sense.

And yes, I've seen that sudden drop in coolant temp when I start the ICE. I can just picture all the cold liquid starting to circulate.

Would love to see a cross sectional drawing of one of our little beasties, like they do for airplanes and ships and so on.


Edited by P=E/t, 16 February 2015 - 06:50 PM.


#54 OFFLINE   P=E/t

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 07:27 AM

Should have called this thread "Gauges and Messages." There are so many to explore.

 

And this AM I got the uber-dreaded "Oil Maintenance, Engine Will Run" message. My wife already went through that on her C-Max. My odometer is only at 2,100 miles or so, and hers less--these are new cars. Why Ford software hits us with this mode so early is so odd.

 

Anyway, I'm wondering if the release from ICE-running jail is miles-dependent or time-dependent. I'm going to go about 22 highway miles later today, and hopefully that puts an end to this annoying mode.

 

Since 2003 I've driven a Prius 2003, Prius 2008 and now the C-Max Energi. Nothing is so maddening as when an ICE runs at a traffic light! Ugh!



#55 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 07:48 AM

The reason the engine is going into oil maintenance mode is because you are running the engine is short burps here and there and that develops moisture in the oil that will cause the engine to force run.  Its best if you:

 

a) do not run the engine at all by making your trip 100% EV or

b) if you do run the engine run it enough so that it reaches full operating temperature (1/2 way on the temp gage).

 

The short run of a few miles here and there to finish your drive that is not 100% EV is causing this.  I remember you said you started the engine to just climb a steep hill on the way home the last bit of the trip, right?  Well, that's not the best move and hence why you're getting OMM.

 

Driving it on the highway 22 miles should be a good thing to warm the engine up and burn off the moisture.  I would guess it should be long enough to clear the OMM.  I have never had it happen on my car, but then again I try to drive either 100% EV all the time or take long trips with the engine.  This year so far since day 1 reset the trip 2 meter, I've gone just over 740 miles and burned 0.12 gallons of fuel for 2.1 miles (ran out of battery on 2 occasions and needed the engine for a mile to get home).  I don't plan to use the engine until mid March when I'm taking a trip to AL, its going to get well used then my round trip there and back should be between 2500 and 3k miles.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 28 February 2015 - 07:50 AM.


#56 OFFLINE   Tom_NC_1

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 08:25 AM

Should have called this thread "Gauges and Messages." There are so many to explore.

 

And this AM I got the uber-dreaded "Oil Maintenance, Engine Will Run" message. My wife already went through that on her C-Max. My odometer is only at 2,100 miles or so, and hers less--these are new cars. Why Ford software hits us with this mode so early is so odd.

 

Anyway, I'm wondering if the release from ICE-running jail is miles-dependent or time-dependent. I'm going to go about 22 highway miles later today, and hopefully that puts an end to this annoying mode.

 

Since 2003 I've driven a Prius 2003, Prius 2008 and now the C-Max Energi. Nothing is so maddening as when an ICE runs at a traffic light! Ugh!

I travel about 1k miles per month and about 90% of that is EV. I just had another OMM occurrence. My Last one was mid December. I tend to get the OMM every once in a while because I often need a little Gas to make it the last few miles getting home where I end up using .1 gallons of gas or less. This is not enough time to warm up the engine. 

The shortest distance I have gone before OMM clears is about 8.5 miles. The longest distance has been over 20 miles. I do think that getting the ICE well heated up is the key to clear OMM regardless of the distance travelled. 

 

This winter when I know I need to travel beyond the EV range I have used EV later and run the engine for longer periods of time. I also monitor the coolant temperature To make sure It has heated up. A side benefit is that the heater warms the cabin quite well at that point. I thought that I would avoid OMM but I still get them occasionally.


Edited by Tom_NC_1, 28 February 2015 - 08:26 AM.


#57 OFFLINE   P=E/t

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 08:31 AM

The reason the engine is going into oil maintenance mode is because you are running the engine is short burps here and there and that develops moisture in the oil that will cause the engine to force run.  Its best if you:

 

a) do not run the engine at all by making your trip 100% EV or

b) if you do run the engine run it enough so that it reaches full operating temperature (1/2 way on the temp gage).

 

The short run of a few miles here and there to finish your drive that is not 100% EV is causing this.  I remember you said you started the engine to just climb a steep hill on the way home the last bit of the trip, right?  Well, that's not the best move and hence why you're getting OMM.

 

Ah this makes sense. Moisture in the oil would depend on too-short heating and cooling cycles of the ICE, then, not on the time between oil changes.

 

That hill is about 1/3 of the way on my trip home. I've been climbing it in EV lately. It's a full mile long, probably 300ft elevation (I'll check when it gets warmer), and interrupted by 1 traffic light at the base, 2 along the way and 2 at the crest. Which, this being Philly, are all deviously timed to be red when you get to them.  ;{

 

Going up this hill carefully takes 12% of the HVB consistently. Going up extremely carefully takes 11%. So that's what I do.

 

But I've been running the ICE some mornings for a few miles, to get some cabin heat when it's below 15 F or so out. The temp gauge gets to halfway when I'm done, but it doesn't stay there for long. That, then, plus the occasional "almost made it," is the source of the oil warning coming on.

 

Someday soon the temp here simply has to move into the 30s and 40s consistently. There are other ways to go home to avoid that hill, and as the temps come up it should be easier to go farther on the HVB for a whole host of reasons, so I'll be able to put the ICE on a shelf as well.

 

And thanks Tom for your input too! We were typing at the same time.

 

Rick


Edited by P=E/t, 28 February 2015 - 08:32 AM.


#58 OFFLINE   P=E/t

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 02:17 PM

It took precisely 20 highway miles at 55 mph+ and she came out of Dead Dinosaur Mode.

 

Interestingly, "Oil Maintenance, Engine Will Run" Mode puts up its own unique Empower screen. The first mpg increment is 60 and it goes up to 120+, even though most of the time you'd only be getting 30 or less with the ICE running on flats, on downhills and at red lights.

 

On the highway, the HVB seemed to get used more than in EV Later Mode, and less than in Auto Mode. In that 20 miles the % charge went from 83% to 49%.

 

Just reporting data in case it helps anyone sort something out.

 

Rick



#59 OFFLINE   rbort

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  • LocationFranklin, MA
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  • Current Vehicle:Cmax Energi Titanium with Moonroof

Posted 28 February 2015 - 02:22 PM

Sounds like you were doing "dual power" mode.  There is a way to "trick" the car to do this on the highway, use the engine and the battery at the same time to drive down the road, and in this case MPG numbers will be in the 60's or better.  I tried this once before but decided it wasn't worth it as the battery drained at the same time you're burning gas, and at highway speeds I felt that it would be a waste of the battery to increase the engine MPG numbers 2 fold.

 

-=>Raja.



#60 OFFLINE   P=E/t

P=E/t

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Posted 13 March 2015 - 05:55 PM

It was the dang cold, Raja.

Now, I'm making it to and from work on EV Now on all my various routes, and usually have a few % left when I hit my driveway.

More battery capacity, less friction, less air resistance, more functional driver ... Yes, temps in the 40s make a big difference.

I'll still try to make it on EV Now when it gets so cold again. It just won't be easy. But for now, and for quite a few months to come, all of us in the NE are out of the deep freeze.

 

Rick


Edited by P=E/t, 13 March 2015 - 05:55 PM.









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