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Cost of charging 110v vs. 240v


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#1 OFFLINE   rafacq

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 06:40 PM

Anyone knows if it's cheaper to charge your NRG with 240v instead of 110v?

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#2 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 06:49 PM

You will probably never make it up.  Cost to charge on 110v from fully empty is 8kwh.  Depending on the cost of the kwh at your place, that's what it costs.  For example, in FL electric is cheap, only 5 cents per kwh, so 40 cents per charge.  Here in MA its more expensive, 15 cents per kwh, so $1.20 to charge.  I solved that problem here for myself by instaling solar panels on the house, now electric is free and I got over $300 credit with the electric company after a year of using everything plus charging the Cmax.  

 

240v is a little bit more efficient, you might save about 10% in electric costs, but getting a charger and having it installed can range from approximately $800 if you hire an electrician to $400 if you do it yourself.  Even at $400, if you save 10 cents per charge $400 will go into 10 cents 4000 times so that is probably more than the life of the car to break even.

 

Bottom line:  Don't get a 240v charger to save money, get it if you need to make several trips in one day and don't have time to wait for the 120v charger.  For my lifestyle I'm very much OK with 110v at home and use 240v while I'm on the road at chargepoint stations.  That's when time matters for me because I'm out and about and want the car charged faster.

 

-=>Raja.


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#3 OFFLINE   rafacq

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 08:59 PM

Thanks for the great information! Here in the DFW area my current electricity plan is 12.1 cents during the day and a penny discount on nights. My contract expires in August and a friend recommended StreamEnergy with a fixed 8.8 cents rate, which I will probably subscribe to. My 2001 Escape, which has only broken once in 14 years (not including regular maintenance, tires, etc), only gives me an avg of 18 MPG, so I think the NRG (I'm getting the hang of it) will save me money.

Can you comment on your solar panels? Did you buy them, lease them? How does it work? Do you buy them through your electricity company? What's a good place to find more information.

rafacq

Edited by rafacq, 30 July 2014 - 06:15 PM.


#4 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 09:09 PM

I bought the solar panels.  Here in MA if you buy the solar panels you will get the SREC credits.  When you buy solar panels you will get $2k rebate grant off the top, then Federal gives you 30% back on your taxes and the state gives you 1K back.  After one year and no electric bills, this cuts the initial investment by about 42%.

 

Each 1000kwh that the panels produce = 1 SREC credit.  An SREC credit is like a stock share, it can be sold on the open market for the going price or you can wait until the auction clearing house at a fixed price of $300 per SREC minus $15 brokerage fee minus any aggregator fee to sell for you.  This auction is once per year and you can sell all your previous year's credits then.  For example, if your system makes 11000kwh per year you will get 11x270.75 after fees or close to 3k payback per year.  You get this only if you buy your panels and its for 10 years time limit.  If you get on a program with the solar company to pay less money they own them and they get the srec credits not you.

 

Also you don't have to pay electric bills any more.  You get a net meter installed in your house and by day power flows from the panels into the grid (meter flows backwards) to take load off the electric company generators, and by night you take some of that power back (meter flows forwards).  Net result will be a lower bill if you don't have enough panels or a credit on your account if you have enough panels to cover all your needs and then some.

 

Bottom line is, get the Cmax and also get the panels, probably cost you as much as the Cmax, but in 5 years you'll get the money back for the panels and in 15 more years you'll get the money back for the Cmax and both are free so to speak.

 

Win win situation if you got a house that can take panels (facing the right direction into the sun with no shade and space to install them).  Check with your local solar companies for details, each state is different and you may or may not get srec credits in Texas not sure about that.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 29 July 2014 - 09:15 PM.

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#5 OFFLINE   GS Dave

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 08:31 AM

Raja...not sure where in FL you are referring to...but I am in FL, and with FPL my electric is between 11 and 12 cents based on how much over baseline I go.    Thanks for the info on solar, I have been co0ntemplating for a while and was unaware of the SREC credits.  Will have to look into it.



#6 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 03:24 PM

Hey Dave:

 

I have a friend Tom Martin in FL, he lives near Jacksonville.  He told me last December while I was there after seeing my car and going out for a test drive with his wife that their electricity is like 5 cents a kwh and that it would cost him like 40 cents to charge it.  Just going by what he said, maybe he made a mistake somewhere or maybe there the rates are cheap not sure.

 

-=>Raja.



#7 OFFLINE   j762538

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 05:52 PM

I agree with buying, it will be better in the long run. And getting a good plan. So Cal Edison paid me about $100 a month for 5 years.

#8 OFFLINE   rafacq

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 06:21 PM

I called Stream Energy today and was able to get a fixed rate plan for 6.6 cents kWh plus 3.2 cents per kWh for Oncor (they deliver the electricity).

That's 9.9 total. Not bad for Texas.

#9 OFFLINE   Smiling Jack

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 01:28 PM

I called Stream Energy today and was able to get a fixed rate plan for 6.6 cents kWh plus 3.2 cents per kWh for Oncor (they deliver the electricity).

That's 9.9 total. Not bad for Texas.

 

Thanks for sharing.

 

Interestingly, the cheaper we can buy our electricity the less likely it is that the roughly 15% gain in charcing efficiency would ever pay for the cost of going to Level 2 at home.

 

I'm still on the fence, myself, but if I ever do go for the Level 2, the motivators would be quicker re-charge time and better pre-conditioning.

 

I recently also got a rate under 10 cents in Houston (form Spark).. Last year I was paying up to 18 cents with Reliant, and I would never have looked into the rate, except that my wife asked how much would be added to our electric bill by the Energi charging.  So you might say that the C-Max Energi not only saved me on motor fuel cost, but it also had the effect of pushing me into a HUGE savings in my home electric bill.  The reduction in my electric bills is several times greater than the impact of charging the car !


Edited by Smiling Jack, 31 July 2014 - 01:28 PM.


#10 OFFLINE   John A Smith

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 09:52 AM

The math doesn't work for me in the summer time.  The central valley of California can have 45 days, or more, over 100 deg.  Our electric rate is tiered based on usage starting at 13.6 cents tier 1 climbing to 36 cents tier 4.  Tier 2 is 15.5 cents and tier 3 is 32 cents.  I have a rooftop solar system that produces 30 to 32 KW a day and I still almost reached tier 4 last month.   My cost to charge the Energi was $2.56 based on 8KW which I think is a bit low.  My rough estimate puts it closer to 10KW. I average about 38 mpg on gas at $3.50 a gallon which is 9.2 cents a mile vs 12.8 cents on electric assuming 8KW is accurate.  Before you lecture me on conservation my thermostat was set at 78 but since move to 80.  My wife and I live alone in a 2,200 sf ft house that is 8 years old and meets all current energy standards and is well shaded from the sun.  Our only energy extravagance is a small pool that I don't run to filter nearly as much as I should.  In short we are very conscious of wasting energy; it is the workload on the a/c that is punishing.  If I charged the Energi every day it would use half of my tier 1 allowance.  It is really a shame PG&E does not offer electric car owners a window of time, when their cost is very low, to charge the car and even run the pool pump etc.  This would take load off the grid when their cost is high.  They do offer a plan but it is complicated and based on time of use that requires far too much thinking for me.  My wife already gets annoyed when I remind her to turn off things she’s not using. They also allow you to add second meter, I'm sure that would pay off in hundred years.  Why do they have to make it so complicated?   On the bright side I have power to spare in the spring and fall so charging the Energi is free.  It's also free when I visit people who don't get huge power bill and don't mind me plugging in.   On a recent trip to Las Vegas I told my wife I was going to plug into the motorhome next to us. :-)  

On Edit:  One more caveat, PG&E charges me up to 36 cents a KW but if I have any over production at my annual true up they generously give me 4 cents a KW back.  Keep in mind that every KW I produce is during their peak hours when they pay the most for it and I take a lot of my production back from the grid when their costs are much less.  One more reason why they should be anxious to keep EV customers who also have a solar system happy. 


Edited by John A Smith, 09 August 2014 - 05:01 PM.


#11 OFFLINE   SSE

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 10:09 AM

I might consider getting a 240v charger if I could put it inside the converted garage and just pass the cord/nozzle out the wall through some sort of little door and then reel it back in after it's charged. Sort of a cat door for the cord. I guess I "could" do that but no telling what type of critters would crawl in while it was charging LOL *shudder*



#12 OFFLINE   John A Smith

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 05:03 PM

I might consider getting a 240v charger if I could put it inside the converted garage and just pass the cord/nozzle out the wall through some sort of little door and then reel it back in after it's charged. Sort of a cat door for the cord. I guess I "could" do that but no telling what type of critters would crawl in while it was charging LOL *shudder*

Most Level 2 chargers are indoor/outdoor aren't they?  



#13 OFFLINE   SSE

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 06:39 PM

Most Level 2 chargers are indoor/outdoor aren't they?  

Yes they are, however the front of my house is stone except for the door and side windows area so it would be difficult installing the charger on the wall, not to mention running wire for the outlet  etc. :)



#14 OFFLINE   honemch

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 08:23 PM

The math doesn't work for me in the summer time. The central valley of California can have 45 days, or more, over 100 deg. Our electric rate is tiered based on usage starting at 13.6 cents tier 1 climbing to 36 cents tier 4. Tier 2 is 15.5 cents and tier 3 is 32 cents. I have a rooftop solar system that produces 30 to 32 KW a day and I still almost reached tier 4 last month. My cost to charge the Energi was $2.56 based on 8KW which I think is a bit low. My rough estimate puts it closer to 10KW. I average about 38 mpg on gas at $3.50 a gallon which is 9.2 cents a mile vs 12.8 cents on electric assuming 8KW is accurate. Before you lecture me on conservation my thermostat was set at 78 but since move to 80. My wife and I live alone in a 2,200 sf ft house that is 8 years old and meets all current energy standards and is well shaded from the sun. Our only energy extravagance is a small pool that I don't run to filter nearly as much as I should. In short we are very conscious of wasting energy; it is the workload on the a/c that is punishing. If I charged the Energi every day it would use half of my tier 1 allowance. It is really a shame PG&E does not offer electric car owners a window of time, when their cost is very low, to charge the car and even run the pool pump etc. This would take load off the grid when their cost is high. They do offer a plan but it is complicated and based on time of use that requires far too much thinking for me. My wife already gets annoyed when I remind her to turn off things she’s not using. They also allow you to add second meter, I'm sure that would pay off in hundred years. Why do they have to make it so complicated? On the bright side I have power to spare in the spring and fall so charging the Energi is free. It's also free when I visit people who don't get huge power bill and don't mind me plugging in. On a recent trip to Las Vegas I told my wife I was going to plug into the motorhome next to us. :-)
On Edit: One more caveat, PG&E charges me up to 36 cents a KW but if I have any over production at my annual true up they generously give me 4 cents a KW back. Keep in mind that every KW I produce is during their peak hours when they pay the most for it and I take a lot of my production back from the grid when their costs are much less. One more reason why they should be anxious to keep EV customers who also have a solar system happy.


I saved half of my energy use by changing all my incandescent bulbs to LED/CFL. If you haven't yet, it makes a BIG difference! Pool pumps use a lot of power as well... If yours is old, check out the new multi speed ones. They use a lot less energy and depending on your utility, you can get a rebate.

#15 OFFLINE   dr61

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 08:06 AM

The math doesn't work for me in the summer time.  The central valley of California can have 45 days, or more, over 100 deg.  Our electric rate is tiered based on usage starting at 13.6 cents tier 1 climbing to 36 cents tier 4.  Tier 2 is 15.5 cents and tier 3 is 32 cents.  I have a rooftop solar system that produces 30 to 32 KW a day and I still almost reached tier 4 last month.   My cost to charge the Energi was $2.56 based on 8KW which I think is a bit low.  My rough estimate puts it closer to 10KW. I average about 38 mpg on gas at $3.50 a gallon which is 9.2 cents a mile vs 12.8 cents on electric assuming 8KW is accurate.  Before you lecture me on conservation my thermostat was set at 78 but since move to 80.  My wife and I live alone in a 2,200 sf ft house that is 8 years old and meets all current energy standards and is well shaded from the sun.  Our only energy extravagance is a small pool that I don't run to filter nearly as much as I should.  In short we are very conscious of wasting energy; it is the workload on the a/c that is punishing. 

We live in a similar area, but perhaps it is cooler here in the early morning.  Big changes we made to save energy: a whole house fan (run in early morning with AC off, windows open), solar attic vents, and most of all, switching to very high efficiency Daikin mini-split heat pumps instead of central AC.  The whole house fan works here most summer days (today it was 67F at 6 AM, yesterday high 100F at 4:30 PM), but may not work for you in the summer if AM temperatures remain too high.  Our 3.1 KW PV system now supplies more than 100% of our electric energy needs on a yearly basis. 

 

I charge the car with 240V in the 4 AM-6 AM window in the summer to keep battery temperature at a minimum.



#16 OFFLINE   rafacq

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 07:47 AM

Yes, I also have changed all my outside bulbs for LED bulbs.  A little expensive to buy, but hopefully, their lower consumption of energy with longer life will pay off at the end.

 

My OpenEVSE 30A Charge Station Combo (with Enclosure - Quick Kit with RGB LCD/RTC / Wall Mount Flange / OpenEVSE Artwork) is shipping today!!!  The 220v plug is now installed in the garage and waiting to be used!  Can't wait.



#17 OFFLINE   Dabomfrus

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 05:23 AM

All good info. Here in GA, my rates are 8.5 cents right now and look like they drop to 5.5 cents during non-peak seasons, non-peak times. But I'm using 8.5 for my "savings estimates." I think I'm going to install a Level 2 charger mainly to enable more EV driving on weekends, such as running errands, carting kids around, etc.

 

With my driving habits, I'm using gas (still over 150mpg on this tank so far) mainly on weekends where I can't get enough of a charge between trips with 110 charging.



#18 OFFLINE   rafacq

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 02:02 PM

I ordered an Open EVSE kit and a friend helped put it together. We are still waiting for the J1772 cable.

 

UPDATE: As of August 28, we finished building our OpenEVSE kits.  I have installed mine in my garage and now charge in approximately 2 hours!  The factory EVSE stays in the car for when visiting out of town.  Its so neat, now when I visit my friend who lives 22 miles away, he also purchased an NRG and also installed a 240 OpenEVSE kit.  So when I come over to visit, he lets me charge my car and I complete the round trip on pure electricity.  Of course, the same will apply whenever he comes to visit me.  Will just plug his NRG to my EVSE and charge away.  Here is my installed unit.

 

OpenEVSE

Edited by rafacq, 01 September 2014 - 08:22 AM.


#19 OFFLINE   mrweatherbee

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 08:27 PM

John

 

PG&E does have a reduced rate program, only available for EV drivers. I just got my Energi and signed up immediately, new plan just got approved today. I go from tiered pricing where I regularly hit tier 4 at $0.31, mostly from running AC at night, to now getting time of use pricing. Peak price is high at $0.40, but off-peak (after 11PM) is only $0.10. I'm not going to charge until the new rates go into effect with my next billing cycle, like you said I'm better off driving hybrid compared to $0.31 to charge, but once the new rates take effect I will set value charging to start at 11PM and I will get a full nightly charge for $0.80.


Edited by mrweatherbee, 01 October 2014 - 08:27 PM.


#20 OFFLINE   Binky

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 06:00 AM

I ordered an Open EVSE kit and a friend helped put it together. We are still waiting for the J1772 cable.

 

UPDATE: As of August 28, we finished building our OpenEVSE kits.  I have installed mine in my garage and now charge in approximately 2 hours!  The factory EVSE stays in the car for when visiting out of town.  Its so neat, now when I visit my friend who lives 22 miles away, he also purchased an NRG and also installed a 240 OpenEVSE kit.  So when I come over to visit, he lets me charge my car and I complete the round trip on pure electricity.  Of course, the same will apply whenever he comes to visit me.  Will just plug his NRG to my EVSE and charge away.  Here is my installed unit.

 

 

Nice clean install Rafacq.  I've been eying those and Juicebox's for a while now, but with only a 3.3kwh charger in our cars, can't really justify the expense at this point.  I don't need to drive often enough for it with this car, but yeah.. definately a time or two where I wished I had one.

 

  For those of you mentioning heat issues, consider installing a radiant barrier in the attic if you have access to it.  While CT seldom gets as hot as CT, and I also have solar panels keeping most of the sun from my western roof, I could easily walk in my attic during the summer after installing it and noticed a stabilization of temp during the winter as well.  I have a 2200 sq foot ranch and I think it cost me 1200 dollars installed.   Attic looks like a space capsul now.   A mini-split is next on my list due to it being able to supply heat as well.  We're stuck with oil in my neighborhood and it was roughly 500 dollars for 100 gallons a month last winter.   With the solar panels I'm moving as much as I can to electricity.   I run an energy business part time as well so any overages beyond what my solar panels produce I get back via rebates monthly.


Edited by Binky, 02 October 2014 - 06:02 AM.









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