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No longer getting a full charge?

c-max batteries charging

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111 replies to this topic

#41 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 03:35 PM

Gary, you're not recalibrating anything on the cmax turning on the AC while charging.  Topher doesn't want to say anything to upset you...

 

Recalibration on the Escape Hybrids you talk about is something totally different.  The Cmax is not the same car as the Escape Hybrid.

 

I'll call it supercharging like you, that makes more sense.  And you just agreed that you get more range that way, basically because you charged the battery more, up to 10% more...

 

Bottom line is use the AC while plugged into a level 2 charger to increase the battery charge further before you go on a long EV trip.  I will add to this to make sure you don't let your car sit after supercharging, should be driven right away so that the pack is not at peak voltage with danger of voltage to rise further due to heat.

 

I'm not sure what the last paragraph means, explain that more.  Why is there no need to charge the battery from 90% to 100% if the outside air temp is below 80F?

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 05 June 2014 - 03:37 PM.








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#42 OFFLINE   GaryG

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 05:04 PM

Gary, you're not recalibrating anything on the cmax turning on the AC while charging.  Topher doesn't want to say anything to upset you...

 

Recalibration on the Escape Hybrids you talk about is something totally different.  The Cmax is not the same car as the Escape Hybrid.

 

I'll call it supercharging like you, that makes more sense.  And you just agreed that you get more range that way, basically because you charged the battery more, up to 10% more...

 

Bottom line is use the AC while plugged into a level 2 charger to increase the battery charge further before you go on a long EV trip.  I will add to this to make sure you don't let your car sit after supercharging, should be driven right away so that the pack is not at peak voltage with danger of voltage to rise further due to heat.

 

I'm not sure what the last paragraph means, explain that more.  Why is there no need to charge the battery from 90% to 100% if the outside air temp is below 80F?

 

-=>Raja.

 

My last paragraph in my last post is the most important point about supercharging. When you claimed to know I supercharged prior to my 39.6 EV trip range, I said that was not true. Then you had so called good for me, that if I had supercharged, I would have doubled the EPA 21 mile rating, that's not true either.  Remember that? The main point in supercharging is to improve thermal balancing of the cells while charging in hot weather. If the weather is mild (60 to 75F) OAT, there is no value in running the cabin A/C while charging because the OAT would already provide cool enough air to thermal balance the cells. 

 

I got more good news for you. If your battery is only charging to 90% SOC after a full charge, you need to recalibrate your battery. The lowest SOC I ever get without supercharging is 98.9% after fully charging my battery normally. After recalibration with supercharging, the next full normal charge went to 99.6% SOC. Most of the time, my battery will charge to 99.2% on average with a normal full charge.

 

TopherTheME was the only one here that agreed with me about recommending the OP recalibrate his battery. The Energi is designed to charge to 99.9% SOC, and that would recalibrate the battery each time you fully charge the battery normally. People here are now reporting that their batteries are not fully charging anymore. Perhaps recalibrating their battery to a 99.9 SOC will solve their problem.

 

Gary



#43 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 09:32 PM

My last paragraph in my last post is the most important point about supercharging. When youclaimed to know I supercharged prior to my 39.6 EV trip range, I said that was not true. Then you had so called good for me, that if I had supercharged, I would have doubled the EPA 21 mile rating, that's not true either.  Remember that?

 

Yes I guessed or expected rather that you would have supercharged before setting your 39.6 EV mile record but apparently I was wrong on that.  I know you have been supercharging for a while and there is a post about that from several months ago so it was only logical that you would be smart enough to take advantage of that.  You said somewhere you supercharged to make 33.6 miles record, so did you just drive better to get the 39.6 miles or go slower, downwind or follow trucks, etc?  Would be interesting to know how you achieved it if you're willing to share and not keep it a secret, unless you're concerned about the record holding then I understand no worries.

 

You managed 39.6 miles without supercharging, and in your supercharging thread you said you can routinely get 2 to 3 miles more doing that then the good news was that if your supercharged it would be logical that you can get 39.6 miles plus 2 to 3 miles more making it say 42.1 miles (say 2.5 miles more) and that is more than 2x the EPA rating.  That's all I was saying there.

 

In that thread tonight I also saw your post about where to get the SGII and the best price and such.  Wish you could have just restated that when I asked instead of the F thing, you know?  Was just asking a simple question as I figured you would know.

 

Sounds like the OP has more problems than just a "recalibration."  He's got 1.1 Kwh less usable per charge which is 20% of the battery.  Best thing might be a trip to the dealer to have them investigate what's up.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 05 June 2014 - 09:39 PM.


#44 OFFLINE   GaryG

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 04:08 PM

 

Yes I guessed or expected rather that you would have supercharged before setting your 39.6 EV mile record but apparently I was wrong on that.  I know you have been supercharging for a while and there is a post about that from several months ago so it was only logical that you would be smart enough to take advantage of that.  You said somewhere you supercharged to make 33.6 miles record, so did you just drive better to get the 39.6 miles or go slower, downwind or follow trucks, etc?  Would be interesting to know how you achieved it if you're willing to share and not keep it a secret, unless you're concerned about the record holding then I understand no worries.

 

You managed 39.6 miles without supercharging, and in your supercharging thread you said you can routinely get 2 to 3 miles more doing that then the good news was that if your supercharged it would be logical that you can get 39.6 miles plus 2 to 3 miles more making it say 42.1 miles (say 2.5 miles more) and that is more than 2x the EPA rating.  That's all I was saying there.

 

In that thread tonight I also saw your post about where to get the SGII and the best price and such.  Wish you could have just restated that when I asked instead of the F thing, you know?  Was just asking a simple question as I figured you would know.

 

Sounds like the OP has more problems than just a "recalibration."  He's got 1.1 Kwh less usable per charge which is 20% of the battery.  Best thing might be a trip to the dealer to have them investigate what's up.

 

-=>Raja.

 

 

I share all I know on these boards so all can improve their MPG if they want too. At the 2007 MPG Challenge during Hybridfest, I didn't want to drive all the way to Madison WI, so another hypermiler offered to let me drive the 26 mile challenge if he could ride shotgun in his '05 FEH to see how I hypermile. I agreed and flew to Madison for the Challenge. He ran the Challenge first and got 47MPG, and road shotgun with me on my run. Same exact course in the City and hills with the same OAT. I got 61.2mpg for first place in my class of hybrids.I got 14mpg better than the second place driver with the '05 FEH. That was the first time I was in Madison and the first time driving in the hills with a hybrid. 

 

"Division 4 (Mercury Mariner Hybrid, Ford Escape Hybrid, Toyota Highlander Hybrid, Lexus RX 400h, Saturn VUE Green Line Hybrid, Chevy Silverado Hybrid)
Gary Gattis of Jupiter, FL, 60 MPG (100% over EPA estimate of 30 MPG) driving a 2005 Ford Escape Hybrid."  http://www.prleap.com/pr/86684/

 

The route I took to get 33.9 miles and 39.6 miles in the Energi was the same, only I went 5.7 miles further without Supercharging and running the A/C. I

did not draft and traffic was about the same, and so was the time of day. The weather was about 90F when I got the 33.9 miles and I had to use the A/C. The weather was 65F when I got 39.6 miles, so no need to Supercharge, and no need to run the A/C. Supercharging only works in hot weather where you need to run the A/C for preconditioning and during the trip to keep me cool and the battery.

 

I never said I get 2 - 3 more miles from Supercharging, I said most people report getting 2 - 3 more miles Supercharging. I get a much further range Supercharging because I'm an experienced hypermiler. When you add up all the combined hypermiling techniques I use, Supercharging just adds to further my EV range than most people will get. Example, The 1st place Honda Insight driver of the 2007 Challenge got 168mpg. In the 2006 Challenge, Billy let Wayne Gerdes drive his Insight (the same Insight) and he got 180mpg. That's 12mpg better than the owner got. No question Wayne is the best of the best hypermilers on the planet. Wayne came to Florida to share his skills with me in my '05 FEH, and he got better MPG than I did in my own car!

 

You can't teach driving skills like that to everyone. No need for me or Wayne to keep a technique a secret, so we can have the record in hypermiling. We both want to save the environment and reduce the need for gas and oil. It doesn't hurt saving money either.

 

Gary



#45 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 04:40 PM

Allright Gary that's awesome and congrats on all your accomplishments.  Now do you think you can give some details of what you did on that route when you got 39.6 miles on one charge?  You said no AC so that explains the extra 6 miles, now, how did you drive this segment, how long did it take, etc etc and what tricks did you use.

 

If you can write something in detail like I did here for this guy:

 

http://fordcmaxenerg...pic/2672-55mpg/

 

that would help make me understand better some additional points that I may be missing.  I've seen the hypermiling tips you linked to before, but I'm interested to hear what you did on that specific trip.  I know it takes time to type it like I did for the fellow in the link above, so do it when you can spare the time and I appreciate your effort.

 

-=>Raja.



#46 OFFLINE   TopherTheME

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 04:47 PM


Topher's been online but he never replied to give me another point of view of my explanation.  Someone else replied above and gave a link to the battery university document which is good reading.  In the first paragraph there it says:

 

 

Yeah, I know, thats because I don't really see the point in repeating myself. You don't seem to understand the idea that estimated vehicle range (and the displayed SOC) is not equivalent to actual battery SOC and is a function of several variables including driving history and ambient temperature. Furthermore, even the most advanced SOC alogrithms are merely approximations and contain error. Some are more accurate than others but in the end its still just an approximation.

 

Also, the first paragraph in that battery university webpage that you mentioned is wrong. I've contacted them about fixing their page. Their fuel cell page is also very poorly written and has many mistakes and false information. I'd be careful about using that site as a referrence.


Edited by TopherTheME, 07 June 2014 - 04:54 PM.


#47 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 07:33 AM

The whole point of the question was for you to explain to me what's happening.  Here is a picture:

 

 

Trip & Charge Log
  • Sunday, Jun 8, 2014Completed 11:11 PMHome
    Energy
     
     
    82%
    Total Amount Filled
     
      0%
     
    Value Charging
    Time
    8:38PM
    Sunday
    -
    11:11PM
    Sunday
     
    2 hours 33 minutes
    Total Charging Time
  •  
    100% EV
    Trip: 16.7 milesSunday, Jun 8, 2014Completed 7:28 PM

    Raja

    Energy
     
     
    3.1
    kWh
    Total Amount Used
    EV Miles
    16.7 miles
    Fuel Economy
    178 MPGe
     
    Brake Score
    99%
    4.9 miles from Regen!
     
    Driving Score
    96
  • After this trip I charged up the car to 82% last night.  You can see that above where the charge level was at late at night.  Today 12 hours later after the temps warmed up a bit now the charge level is showing 93% and there are more miles on the estimate (34 now), which comes I'm sure from the charge level % correlation.  I just tried to upload the two pictures but it says "uploading is not allowed"?  Anyone know why it used to work...
Anyways, I originally thought it was due to the voltage rise/change from temperature swings.  You said that was incorrect and that the document that states that is also false and misleading.  My simple question to you is to understand what the correct explanation here, that's all.  I'll also add that I've seen the charge level drop the other way, from 55% down to 45% or so when it turned colder out.  So anyways, tell me when you can what's happening so I understand better and thanks.
 
If I can find out why the pictures are not uploading I'll get them up here for you to see.
 
-=>Raja.

 



#48 OFFLINE   viajero

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 02:52 PM

Also, the first paragraph in that battery university webpage that you mentioned is wrong. I've contacted them about fixing their page.

 

Yes, the battery voltage increases with lower temperature.  I recently saw this announcement that some people were using this to convert waste heat to electrical energy by charging a hot battery and then cooling it off.  Doesn't sound too practical yet, but kind of interesting.

 

http://news.stanford...ery-052114.html



#49 OFFLINE   altabrig

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 04:02 PM

Has the OP had his battery's charging issue diagnosed by a Ford expert?  Have they offered a solution to the problem?

 

Interesting discussion going on about the battery charge parameters and maximums.

 

 I wish I was knowledgeable regarding battery power management and ee in general enough to separate the wheat from the chaff.  

 

We are all guineas as far as figuring out what the actual usage life of our batteries will be before they start loosing significant capacity.

 

 

When I tally up my kWh used on my runs that go from home to surf to school to home and leave me with nothing the tally amounts to 4.8 - 4.9 kWh used on a ~25 mile trip (probably just under 25 miles total.   The online MFM log is leaving off a .75 mile segment which would account for a couple more tenths of a kWh.

 

Is that number reliable (of MFM trip and charge log) or should I too be worried like the OP about diminished capacity?   Of my 18k miles about 15K are EV.


Edited by altabrig, 09 June 2014 - 04:12 PM.


#50 OFFLINE   GaryG

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 06:42 PM

The fact is, you can't change rbort's thinking. I use my results to learn. If you can't understand what I post, don't ask silly questions to dispute my results. I went 39.6 miles on a single battery charge and that has got rbort in a pickle. I can't help that, but if he needs a repeated post, sorry, go read my post again. I said that I didn't go over 40mph, and that should be good enough for him. I did come to numerous stops at lights and signs, that's part of driving surface streets.

 

The person that road shotgun in the '07 MPG Challenge never increased MPG after. That is a skill that can never be learned. rbort is dreaming I have a secret he can learn.

 

Gary



#51 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 06:47 PM

Gary, you funny shit!   :hi5:

 

Thanks for the good laugh!

 

-=>Raja.



#52 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 07:05 AM

Ok looked this morning and found your post.  You said you were in N 30 miles out of the trip, pulse to 32 and glide to 25 and repeat, L for brake.  Could have just re-posted that simple line but no worries that's all I was asking.

 

With D and no N I was able to achieve 30.2 miles, 193 MPGe and used 5.2kwh with 2 to 3 miles left in the main battery - that was a good day for me I drove it home but if I had kept going until I used up all the main battery I think I would have been close to 34 miles with no N used.

 

To match what you did one would need to inflate the tires more and do the N thing constantly to get there.  Maybe once for fun, but for everyday driving what most of us are doing in D and eco cruise is pretty good.

 

When I drove my trip I think I was cruising close to but under 40mph.  maybe like 38 or so.  I may just do it differently some day when I have the chance set CC to 32 and see what miles I'll get.  Trouble is things get too slow and you need more patience to get there, but it might be a good test to see how much further the car will go about 5-6mph slower without the constant shifting to N.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 10 June 2014 - 07:11 AM.


#53 OFFLINE   reedrinn

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 07:41 AM

Has the OP had his battery's charging issue diagnosed by a Ford expert?  Have they offered a solution to the problem?

 

I'm still waiting for a convenient time to get in to the dealer to have this checked out.  If not tomorrow, it'll be next week.  I'll post updates.

 

-RR



#54 OFFLINE   reedrinn

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 10:09 AM

Here's an update on my issue of not getting a full charge.

 

I took the car into the dealer last Tuesday and told them that I had two problems:

 

1. The upper-left charge ring light segment did not work.

2.  I could only get 4.4 kWh per charge, expecting 5.5 kWh.

 

They replaced the entire charging port in order to fix the lights, but are having problems diagnosing the charge issue.  The shop foreman called me and said that they were talking with Ford, and were instructed to update the firmware in 3 different modules (I don't know the details).  They had me pick up the car on Friday afternoon and requested that I drive it for a few days to see if the problem was corrected.  After several charging cycles over the weekend, I will report back that the problem has not been fixed.  To verify, I had a friend who also owns a C-Max Energi do a comparison drive with me.  We both charged our cars fully, then set out on the highway.  We drove the same route simultaneously under the same conditions, tracking our mileage and electrical consumption using the trip odometer.  My battery reached 0% at 14 miles and 4.5 kWh.  His battery hit 0% at 18 miles and 5.4 kWh.  I'll be reporting all of this back to the shop foreman this week to see what they will do.

 

-RR


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#55 OFFLINE   larryh

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 06:31 PM

Have you checked the EV info screen to see what it shows for the SOC of the HVB after the car has been fully charged? 



#56 OFFLINE   SSE

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 01:30 AM

Out of curiousity, why when I log on to MFM in the morning would it say I am fully charged at 26 but if I update it now says 20. All I did was go unplug and come in and get ready for work. :)

thanks,

Shirley



#57 OFFLINE   timwil56

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 05:55 AM

Out of curiousity, why when I log on to MFM in the morning would it say I am fully charged at 26 but if I update it now says 20. All I did was go unplug and come in and get ready for work. :)

thanks,

Shirley

That ones a mystery. On MFM, it states fully charged a 24 miles, when I start the car the info screen reads 26 miles and the MFT screen reads 100% SOC.



#58 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 06:04 AM

It may have been due to your driving the last trip before charging Shirley?  MFM is not "up to date" until you update it usually, I just went in mine and it showed 19 miles, updated it went to 16 miles because last night I took a short trip to grab a pizza.  Mine is usually pretty accurate between MFM and the car's display.  Sometimes though if the car gets hot or hotter the miles rise as well as the SOC in the % screen.  In the winter I get the opposite, miles and soc drops some due to temp swings down.

 

-=>Raja.



#59 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 08:27 PM

To the original poster, trying to gather some data in regards to your situation:

 

1) I see that you have over 25000 miles on the car so far.

2) Looks like from your text you charge the car 3 times a day, twice on the 240v, and once on 110v presumably at home overnight.  Does this happen pretty consistent?

3) As of now, you can only get about 4.4 to 4.5kwh out of the battery before you reach 0 miles range.

4) Ford did replace the light ring, did that make all 4 rings light when full?  Question in regards to this, did he 4th ring light when you plugged in the charger as the segments light up 1, 2 ,3 4 in 2 full circles to indicate being plugged in to charge before Ford replaced the light ring?

5) When fully charged, and you are in AUTO mode and go to the Empower screen in D, do you see the 4 bars on the battery as full power indicated or less?  And if you see 4 bars, do they stay 4 bars all the way until you reach 0% charge and then slowly drop to 3 then 2 bars or suddenly drop to 2 from 4 bars?

 

What else can you tell us about this situation?  Specifically of interest to me that I posted in another thread:

 

1. Did you leave the car plugged in all the time?

2. Did you drive in Auto all the time and go on the highway for your commute at 75mph or what speed until the engine kicks in?

3. Did you plug the car to charge right away when you get to your destination with the battery empty?

 

Anything else you can add?  I'm trying to use your information to understand more about how to increase HVB life.

 

Lastly, if you get it fixed by Ford, please let us know if they replace the HV battery under warranty and thanks Reedrinn.

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 13 July 2014 - 08:29 PM.


#60 OFFLINE   SSE

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 01:04 AM

It may have been due to your driving the last trip before charging Shirley?  MFM is not "up to date" until you update it usually, I just went in mine and it showed 19 miles, updated it went to 16 miles because last night I took a short trip to grab a pizza.  Mine is usually pretty accurate between MFM and the car's display.  Sometimes though if the car gets hot or hotter the miles rise as well as the SOC in the % screen.  In the winter I get the opposite, miles and soc drops some due to temp swings down.

 

-=>Raja.

I'm not sure what you mean about driving the last trip before charging. I charge it and the last update is the one that says it's fully charged. That is the one I was discussing that said different from what the car said when I got in and turned it on. Anyway, it's not important in the grand scheme of the world.










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