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Regen When Driving in EV


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33 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   timwil56

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 09:42 AM

I have a question regarding the up ^ arrow symbol above the SOC battery display. I noticed today that when I let off the accelerator (I first wrote gas and changed it to accelerator, I ain't using gas... nice) or going down an incline, the ^ symbol appears gray and when I'm using the brakes, the symbol appears blue. If I understand it correctly (and after 4 weeks of ownership I'm still learning, a lot), when ever the ^ symbol appears, the motor is charging the battery, correct? Does it regen at a different rate depending on if you are braking or coasting?









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#2 OFFLINE   larryh

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 11:31 AM

If you are coasting, the amount of regen varies with speed.  Coasting at 55 mph results in about 9 kW of regen power.  Coasting at 30 mph results in about 4 kW of regen power.  Braking results in at most 35 kW of regen power.  The harder you apply the brakes, the greater the regen power up the maximum 35 kW of regen power.  If you brake harder than the maximum 35 kW of regen power, the normal friction brakes will make up the difference.  Your brake score will be less than 100 percent.  Some of the kinetic energy of the moving vehicle is converted to heat by the friction brakes rather than converted to electrical energy and stored in the high voltage battery. 


Edited by larryh, 19 April 2014 - 11:32 AM.


#3 OFFLINE   timwil56

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 03:39 PM

If you are coasting, the amount of regen varies with speed.  Coasting at 55 mph results in about 9 kW of regen power.  Coasting at 30 mph results in about 4 kW of regen power.  Braking results in at most 35 kW of regen power.  The harder you apply the brakes, the greater the regen power up the maximum 35 kW of regen power.  If you brake harder than the maximum 35 kW of regen power, the normal friction brakes will make up the difference.  Your brake score will be less than 100 percent.  Some of the kinetic energy of the moving vehicle is converted to heat by the friction brakes rather than converted to electrical energy and stored in the high voltage battery. 

So, do you think the ^ symbol turns blue when it's at peak regen?

 

On a side note, I was poking around Home Depot today and was thinking about a cap for the charge plug to protect it from dust and debris when hanging in the garage. I plan on securing the L1 charger to the wall of my garage in AZ and hanging the plug on a U hook. I was in the plumbing aisle looking at PVC caps when I came across a 1 1/2" rubber Qwik Cap, removed the adjustable clamp and it fits perfectly over the end of the charge plug.


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#4 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 06:20 PM

Very interesting numbers Larry.

 

So, how much does it regenerate if you use the hill assist mode at different speeds, say 55 and 30.

 

And much much does it regenerate if you shift it into L from 55 and/or 30mph?

 

Would be good to know all this to get a better grasp and our options and thanks!

 

-=>Raja.



#5 OFFLINE   larryh

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 02:39 AM

See the following and subsequent posts starting here:

 

http://www.fordfusio...or-ice/?p=13186

 

I used hill assist going 30 mph downhill yesterday generating between 4 kW and 18 kW of power, and going downhill between 45 mph generating between 5 kW and 25 kW.  Regen is a function of speed and the hill's grade.  Regen power cannot exceed 35 kW.

 

Shifting to low going 55 mph generates about 29 kW of power.  You would need to apply the brakes lightly to reach the maximum of 35 kW of regen power.   At 30 mph, it drops to around 20 kW and then drops off rapidly as speed decreases further.  It drops below 1 kW at 7 mph. 

 

Note that the more power generated during regen, the more efficient the car is in converting kinetic energy into electrical energy and storing more of it in the HVB. 


Edited by larryh, 20 April 2014 - 07:37 AM.


#6 OFFLINE   pevfan

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 04:41 AM

I believe this is a good way to use L to maximize regen in certain situation.

 

If you are at a higher rate of speed and need to come to a stop in a timeframe that you know will not allow you to get a good brake score because you don't have enough time to taper the brake and only use regen without friction brake.    Here is suggestion:

 

Switch to L quickly then slowly also use brake.

I believe this enables you to capture the most energy in regen

 

Here is why I think this is the case, but if someone knows better please feel free to chime in.

I believe there are actually to generators that can generate regen power.

1)   the generator attached to electric motor.

When you coast, use hill assist, or enguage L I believe it uses this generator.

2)  Electric traction motor which 

I believe this is what drives the wheels when you hit the pedal.    I believe this motor also does regen when you hit the brakes.

 

I am guessing coasting can use either electric motor for mild regen depending on what the computer is doing with all variables of energy management.

 

I am also thinking using L to initally slow down is best way to capture to most energy possible via regen.   

Here is why.    L cannot enguage the friction brake.    consequently when you use L to slow down it will capture up to 35KW mentioned earlier.    

 

So here is scenario I'm talking about for max regen.    I'm just making numbers up but I think the general concept is correct.    

Lets say you are going 70 miles an hour and need to slow down for a red light a few hundred feet in front of you.

If you just drop it into L it likely will start generating 35KW right away due to high enertia

2 seconds later you may only be going 45 mph and regenerating 18 KW.    now you can hit the brake to slow additionally and hopefully hit it perfectly to get back near 35 KW and not need friction brake, or if you do only a little so you you end up with a high brake score.

 

Like I said I believe 2 Electric motors that can generate regen

I believe the one used near gas motor can generate more.



#7 OFFLINE   larryh

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 04:59 AM

During regen, it is the electric motor that is generating the majority of the electric power.    The generator is generating electric power during deceleration, but the power it generates is a function of vehicle speed only (which is proportional to generator speed), and not how fast you are decelerating, i.e how hard you are pressing the brakes.  The maximum mechanical power consumed by the generator is about 1.9 kW at 8000 rpm and drops off to 0 kW at 0 rpm.  The electric motor generates up to 35 kW of power.


Edited by larryh, 21 April 2014 - 01:27 PM.


#8 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 09:36 AM

Wait a minute, what is the generator for?  I was under the impression that there is only 1 electric motor which is used to drive the wheels and supply regenerative braking when you apply the brake and/or shift to L and allow the computer to draw more current from it to slow the car further.

 

Sounds like the perfect situation which I mostly already do now is to shirt to L and pad just enough brake to see the regeneration circle going around.  Means that the brake lights are on for the folks behind and it might increase regen just a bit, though I thought that L is MAX regeneration no matter what, sounds like Larry can see otherwise.  Larry how do you see these numbers, with scanguage or something else?

 

The trick about shifting to L is that you have to judge exactly when to shift it as you always start by "coast" in D towards that red light or stop sign, and then at some point you shift to L and the timing has to be right so that you don't slow down too short and upset people behind you and also you don't slow down too late and waste the friction brakes.  Sometimes if my timing is wrong I take it back out to D so I can continue to coast to the stop light/sign.  

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 20 April 2014 - 09:38 AM.


#9 OFFLINE   larryh

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 10:08 AM

The motor and generator are interchangeable.  Either one can be used to drive the car or generate electricity.  In my most recent trip, I observed the generator generating up to 20 kW of electric power and consuming up to 15.5 kW of electric power to power the wheels.  I observed the electric motor generating up to 35 kW of electric power and consuming up to 33 kW of electric power to power the wheels.  When driving in EV mode, the generator always consumes mechanical power at a rate which is a function of the car's speed.  The generator is consuming mechanical power while the electric motor is producing mechanical power to drive the wheels.  When the ICE is on, it is usually the other way around, i.e. the generator is consuming electric power to power the wheels and the motor is generating electric power.

 

I do not have a Scan Gauge.  I have an OBDLink MX scanner using Torque and FORScan software to display and record the data. 


Edited by larryh, 21 April 2014 - 01:28 PM.


#10 OFFLINE   GaryG

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 01:15 PM

Wait a minute, what is the generator for?  I was under the impression that there is only 1 electric motor which is used to drive the wheels and supply regenerative braking when you apply the brake and/or shift to L and allow the computer to draw more current from it to slow the car further.

 

Sounds like the perfect situation which I mostly already do now is to shirt to L and pad just enough brake to see the regeneration circle going around.  Means that the brake lights are on for the folks behind and it might increase regen just a bit, though I thought that L is MAX regeneration no matter what, sounds like Larry can see otherwise.  Larry how do you see these numbers, with scanguage or something else?

 

The trick about shifting to L is that you have to judge exactly when to shift it as you always start by "coast" in D towards that red light or stop sign, and then at some point you shift to L and the timing has to be right so that you don't slow down too short and upset people behind you and also you don't slow down too late and waste the friction brakes.  Sometimes if my timing is wrong I take it back out to D so I can continue to coast to the stop light/sign.  

 

-=>Raja.

 

There are two motor/generators inside the eCVT. MG1 is used to start the engine, and after the engine is started, it uses MG1 as a generator to charge the HVB and supply MG2 with power to turn the wheels forward or reverse. To my knowledge, MG1 does not provide any regen. MG2 provide all regen as a generator powered by the wheels while slowing down or braking in D or L. There is no regen in N, R or P and the engine cannot use MG1 as a generator in N. This means you can completely drain the HVB in N, so never allow the engine to run while in N.

 

Both MG1 and MG2 will charge the HVB the fastest when the SOC is at its lowest. As the battery fills, MG1 will charge slower and MPG will start increasing. This is why it is better to increase highway MPG by driving with a full battery. Use EV Later in the beginning of a long trip, and EV Now at the end of your trip where you can plug-in again.

 

Gary 



#11 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 08:50 PM

Ok, another question for the experienced:

 

When you say "it uses MG1 as a generator to charge the HVB and supply MG2 with power to turn the wheels forward or reverse."  Are you saying the car is electric driven all the time?  I was under the impression that when the gas engine started it was used to drive the transmission directly and that the electric motor can assist the engine when the HVB is good enough to do so to give better gas mileage.

 

Question #2:

 

If you are going to a highway trip and its 10 miles of country road to the highway then wouldn't it make sense to use the HVB for the first 10 miles and then switch on the gas engine (EV later) as you are getting on the on-ramp to the highway?  That's what I do and then while on the highway I go to Auto if I get stuck in traffic and am going 35 mph or less and once I break through that speed I go to EV later again.  Does this make sense?  And before my destination arrival I make sure to switch to AUTO and drain the HVB completely by arrival to the destination.  Do you agree?

 

Question #3:  

 

You talk about the SOC of the HVB and how it affects the gas mileage. I was under the impression that if you go to EV later then it will use like 8% of the HVB or so and then charge it back up to around 3 to 4% from full (96-97%) and then use some more and charge it back up.  I see this all the time.  If you use AUTO for 10 miles and then get on the highway with EV later, then it typically does the same thing but the HVB charge level may hover between 51 and 55% for example.  So I'm not really sure what's different about a full battery for highway driving since it seems that the computer just only charges a small section of the HVB and as soon as its charged enough it uses it by shutting off the engine and going EV mode.   Please explain that to me more so I can understand it better.

 

Thanks for your time!

 

-=>Raja.



#12 OFFLINE   bobs

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 02:38 AM

The Prius is simular enough that this should help you.

http://prius.ecroste...SplitDevice.htm

I think there are better ones but could not find them quickly.

Bob

#13 OFFLINE   honemch

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 03:17 AM

Video to help you understand MG1 vs MG2.

#14 OFFLINE   larryh

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 02:20 PM

So, do you think the ^ symbol turns blue when it's at peak regen?

 

It turns blue whenever you press the brakes and it is computing your regen/braking score.   It does not indicate the efficiency of regen.



#15 OFFLINE   larryh

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 02:28 PM


Question #2:

 

If you are going to a highway trip and its 10 miles of country road to the highway then wouldn't it make sense to use the HVB for the first 10 miles and then switch on the gas engine (EV later) as you are getting on the on-ramp to the highway?  That's what I do and then while on the highway I go to Auto if I get stuck in traffic and am going 35 mph or less and once I break through that speed I go to EV later again.  Does this make sense?  And before my destination arrival I make sure to switch to AUTO and drain the HVB completely by arrival to the destination.  Do you agree?

 

Question #3:  

 

You talk about the SOC of the HVB and how it affects the gas mileage. I was under the impression that if you go to EV later then it will use like 8% of the HVB or so and then charge it back up to around 3 to 4% from full (96-97%) and then use some more and charge it back up.  I see this all the time.  If you use AUTO for 10 miles and then get on the highway with EV later, then it typically does the same thing but the HVB charge level may hover between 51 and 55% for example.  So I'm not really sure what's different about a full battery for highway driving since it seems that the computer just only charges a small section of the HVB and as soon as its charged enough it uses it by shutting off the engine and going EV mode.   Please explain that to me more so I can understand it better.

 

Thanks for your time!

 

-=>Raja.

Basically, you want to keep the ICE off for as long as possible.  So reserve the HVB for the slowest portions of your trip.  The efficiency of the electric motor over the ICE decreases with increasing speed.

 

On the freeway at 65 mph, in EV later mode, I do not observe the car significantly charging or discharging the HVB.  It sustains the current SOC of the HVB.  At highway speeds, charging and discharging the battery is less efficient than simply using the ICE to provide the necessary power to the wheels. 



#16 OFFLINE   GaryG

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 04:34 PM

Ok, another question for the experienced:

 

When you say "it uses MG1 as a generator to charge the HVB and supply MG2 with power to turn the wheels forward or reverse."  Are you saying the car is electric driven all the time?  I was under the impression that when the gas engine started it was used to drive the transmission directly and that the electric motor can assist the engine when the HVB is good enough to do so to give better gas mileage.

 

Question #2:

 

If you are going to a highway trip and its 10 miles of country road to the highway then wouldn't it make sense to use the HVB for the first 10 miles and then switch on the gas engine (EV later) as you are getting on the on-ramp to the highway?  That's what I do and then while on the highway I go to Auto if I get stuck in traffic and am going 35 mph or less and once I break through that speed I go to EV later again.  Does this make sense?  And before my destination arrival I make sure to switch to AUTO and drain the HVB completely by arrival to the destination.  Do you agree?

 

Question #3:  

 

You talk about the SOC of the HVB and how it affects the gas mileage. I was under the impression that if you go to EV later then it will use like 8% of the HVB or so and then charge it back up to around 3 to 4% from full (96-97%) and then use some more and charge it back up.  I see this all the time.  If you use AUTO for 10 miles and then get on the highway with EV later, then it typically does the same thing but the HVB charge level may hover between 51 and 55% for example.  So I'm not really sure what's different about a full battery for highway driving since it seems that the computer just only charges a small section of the HVB and as soon as its charged enough it uses it by shutting off the engine and going EV mode.   Please explain that to me more so I can understand it better.

 

Thanks for your time!

 

-=>Raja.

 

That was an excellent video posted by honemch, did you understand it? Also, Larry makes a good point on how EV Later sustains the current SOC. However, my point in my last post was about a long trip where highway driving is the biggest percentage of the trip. If you waste the battery SOC on ten miles getting to the highway in EV, the level of battery SOC will cause the engine load to be greater to "sustain" its level. The generator (MG1) is forced to work harder or at its maximum when the battery SOC is not near the full level. The generator is only a generator with the engine running. At highways speeds, you don't want a heavy engine load by the generator because it will drastically reduce MPG on top of the wind resistances. The generator works at a much lower load sustaining a full battery, so you will get better MPG. Leave your battery SOC for EV at the end of your highway trip and remaining city leg to a charger. EV Later is also hybrid mode, you just burn less gas with a higher battery SOC.

 

"Is the car electric driven all the time?" I'd says yes and no. In the video, he said the engine is not directly connected to the wheels. He also said MG2 was always connected to the wheels. MG2 can only get power from the HVB and MG1 when the engine is running. When the engine is running, it does indirectly power the wheels and MG2 can assist with electrical power to the wheels even more. With a SGII, you can monitor engine load up to 99%, which is wide open throttle (WOT). When the engine is at WOT, MG2 assist begins. The key to driving a hybrid is to never get near WOT. The problem is WOT is very easy to get to in the Atkinson cycle engine. You can be at 2,000rpms and be at WOT in a hybrid  The engine air/fuel mixtures are not controlled by the PCM in WOT, which means you are in open/loop throwing as much gas as possible in the combustion chambers. 

 

Gary



#17 OFFLINE   rbort

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 05:16 PM

Hi Gary, I was just watching this video, very interesting, a little complicated but I think I get it.  Is there a specific video for the cmax to explain the components as well?  I know this is a Prius, but are they the same thing?

 

So please explain to me why with a lower SOC it makes a difference on mpg.  You said it charges the battery harder when its lower, OK, but then at some point it reaches the "hybrid" peak and it stops charging it because its not going to charge the HVB in its entirety.  If the SOC was higher, then it charges the hybrid portion at a lesser rate, so it takes longer to get it up to "full" right?  So longer slower charges are more efficient than more load on the gas engine with shorter faster charges?

 

If I'm driving from here to Virginia, my strategy was to use EV the first 10 miles, then go to EV later until I get to NYC and get stuck in traffic going on the GWB, and then once in NJ go back to EV later, and drive until I get stuck in traffic then go back to Auto, and so on.  

 

So you're saying instead of doing all that, leave it in EV later from home and drive the whole trip to Virginia in EV later, and then something like 20 miles from my destination (at that point its 95 south and there is no traffic) swtich to Auto and shut down the engine and drive at what speed, to burn down the battery, like 65, or 55, or 50?  But remember I'm on the high way so if I go 65 its wasting the battery range more and I'll only get like 20 miles out of it whereas the first strategy above I probably get at least 30 miles out of it in traffic and such.

 

You think that option 2 above is better overall for the trip?  And what speed on the highway is best for the engine burn?  62? 65?  68? 73?  I have a trip to VA at the end of this month :)

 

-=>Raja.


Edited by rbort, 21 April 2014 - 05:23 PM.


#18 OFFLINE   timwil56

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 05:20 AM

Let me ask this, do you get more regen by applying the brakes harder, for shorter distances even though that may reduce the percentage of regen from braking on the Brake Coach gauge? My practice now is to brake lightly for the longest distance possible (sometimes I have to let off the brake because I'm stopping too soon) to maximize the % of regen from braking.



#19 OFFLINE   larryh

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 06:58 AM

If you coast, I estimate the regen efficiency to be around 75%.   For maximum regen, I estimate the efficiency is 95%.  So potentially you could get more regen with harder braking, even though you don't get the maximum brake score.

 

Efficiency here is defined as the amount of mechanical energy available at the motor vs. the amount of electrical energy generated by the motor.  Not all the lost kinetic energy of the car will make it to the motor, maybe 20% will be lost due to aerodynamic drag, rolling resistance, and other losses.  The HVB itself is 95% efficient.  You can extract about 95% of the energy you put into it. 

 

I would not wait to the last minute to brake.  You might want to brake harder earlier and then coast to a stop. 


Edited by larryh, 25 April 2014 - 07:00 AM.


#20 OFFLINE   GaryG

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 03:40 PM

If you coast, I estimate the regen efficiency to be around 75%.   For maximum regen, I estimate the efficiency is 95%.  So potentially you could get more regen with harder braking, even though you don't get the maximum brake score.

 

Efficiency here is defined as the amount of mechanical energy available at the motor vs. the amount of electrical energy generated by the motor.  Not all the lost kinetic energy of the car will make it to the motor, maybe 20% will be lost due to aerodynamic drag, rolling resistance, and other losses.  The HVB itself is 95% efficient.  You can extract about 95% of the energy you put into it. 

 

I would not wait to the last minute to brake.  You might want to brake harder earlier and then coast to a stop. 

 

You're pretty smart Larry, but you should never brake hard and exceed 100% regen before using the fiction brakes. Also, where do you get you should coast to a stop? In the early days of Fords first FEH, Ford and their Hybrid  Engineers had classes and driving instructions with the new owners on many other things and to properly use the brakes for regen. They've always said brake as soft as you can to a stop and I agree. The brake score in the Energi is great and I find very accurate. In both my FEH's, we had a needle OEM gauge with the amount of regen you got before the friction brakes. I get all I can from regen and have for years. Everything I've read says you get 100% of regen that is possible before the friction brakes are applied. Any hard braking above that !00% is lost energy.

 

Gary

 


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