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12 volt battery S.O.C.


Best Answer honemch , 08 August 2014 - 08:30 AM

It would also have been brilliant if they set ot up to jump the 12v from the HV battery if the 12v goes dead. I've had dead 12v 3 times now and knowing I have a 15 mi charge in the HV tha t I can't tap galls me!
1st dead battery user error. 2nd and 3rd were after it sat for 2 or more days. Might have to try the external charging of 12 v.

 

If you never charged the battery with an external charger after killing it, then the battery was never fully charged again causing your reoccurring problem. I would def charge the battery with an external charger! If the battery fails again, then it has been damaged and needs to be replaced.

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#161 OFFLINE   drdiesel1

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 05:10 PM

DMM and posts #31 and #75 in this thread.

Based on that chart, my battery should have been down to 50% @ 12.2 volts.  My charger was showing 75% @ 12.2 :headscratch:









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#162 OFFLINE   Don

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 05:22 PM

I used that chart since you seemed to like it (post #32).

Also unclear is if you leave the battery connected during measurement. Any load will affect the measurement.

I am assuming battery is connected since it probably affects saved settings.

Additionally it sounds like you switched to making measurements at the front terminals so there is a resistance resulting in some voltage drop.


Edited by Don, 04 October 2013 - 05:26 PM.


#163 OFFLINE   drdiesel1

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 08:38 PM

I used that chart since you seemed to like it (post #32).

Also unclear is if you leave the battery connected during measurement. Any load will affect the measurement.

I am assuming battery is connected since it probably affects saved settings.

Additionally it sounds like you switched to making measurements at the front terminals so there is a resistance resulting in some voltage drop.

Battery has always been connected. No voltage draw from the dome lights. 

The hood has no light or BCM inputs like the doors or hatch.

Yep, I switched to the underhood power tab at the begining of these tests. 

Static battery voltage should read the same as at the battery posts.  No drop/draw on the non loaded circuit.


Edited by drdiesel1, 04 October 2013 - 08:38 PM.


#164 OFFLINE   jdbob

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 02:13 AM

I've done a couple of tests using the Schumacher SSC-1500A battery charger (http://www.amazon.co...61YI/ref=sr_1_7), mostly due to concern over the 16.0V charging level seen when using the "Standard" battery type setting.

 

I measured both the absorption and float voltages for different battery types:

 

GEL CELL: 14.5V absorption, 13.5V float.

AGM: 15.3V absorption, 13.5V float.

Standard: 16.0V absorption, unknown float (I didn't let the battery sit at 16.0V for too long).

 

According to this page: http://www.batteryst...ry-charger.html the absorption voltage for a sealed lead-acid battery should be 14.2 to 14.7 volts. This corresponds to between 2.37 and 2.45 volts per cell, which is consistent with other recommendations.

 

The closest the Schumacher comes is with the GEL CELL battery type, not "Standard". Seems like "AGM" should be the highest anyone would want to go, and not on a regular basis.



#165 OFFLINE   Don

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 05:43 AM

Battery has always been connected. No voltage draw from the dome lights. 

The hood has no light or BCM inputs like the doors or hatch.

Yep, I switched to the underhood power tab at the begining of these tests. 

Static battery voltage should read the same as at the battery posts.  No drop/draw on the non loaded circuit.

Load I am concerned about is various modules such as GPSM.

Anytime you measure, away from the source (I.E. extended leads) you will encounter some resistance loss: Resistance of a wire
R = ρL/A
ρ is resitivity of the material
L is length
A is cross-sectional area

 

The leads, to the front of the car, are probably huge so they should not have much loss but it may be worth a measurement.

Actually the leads may not be so big since there is no high current requirement (I keep thinking back to when the 12V cranks a starter).


Edited by Don, 05 October 2013 - 07:41 AM.


#166 OFFLINE   drdiesel1

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 09:47 AM

Load I am concerned about is various modules such as GPSM.

Anytime you measure, away from the source (I.E. extended leads) you will encounter some resistance loss: Resistance of a wire
R = ρL/A
ρ is resitivity of the material
L is length
A is cross-sectional area

 

The leads, to the front of the car, are probably huge so they should not have much loss but it may be worth a measurement.

Actually the leads may not be so big since there is no high current requirement (I keep thinking back to when the 12V cranks a starter).

Yeah, but this is a static voltage reading. The system is asleep and the modules should not be drawing voltage beyond the normal

memory power requirements.  It would be the same as reading the battery itself. 

It's not a dynamic test like a voltage drop and I'm not looking at parasitic load information. 

 

Only standing battery voltage information. Even if it did cause a drop, it shouldn't be more than 0.5 volts overall.

I also decided to leave my key FOB in the house so I don't activate the BCM.  I'll read it and then see if the FOB

changes the reading :doh:


Edited by drdiesel1, 05 October 2013 - 09:53 AM.


#167 OFFLINE   drdiesel1

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 10:06 AM

So the reading this morning was 12.5 Volts.  I did run the ICE on the freeway yesterday for about 15 miles. Maybe that's why

the reading is higher compared to yesterdays ?  It's also a bit warmer today, too.

The SOC still reads 75% and the FOB (held next to the door) didn't change the meter from it's original 12.5V. 



#168 OFFLINE   jdbob

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 10:33 AM

I noticed that my voltage was lower on a day where I made a lot of stops in town. Every time you open a door lights come on and the LCD screens power up (so the computers must be doing something). Until you actually are settled in the car and push the Start/Stop button does the DC/DC converter come on to charge that battery, up until then you are draining the battery. My highest readings were after coming back from a day lone drive.



#169 OFFLINE   drdiesel1

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 10:58 AM

I noticed that my voltage was lower on a day where I made a lot of stops in town. Every time you open a door lights come on and the LCD screens power up (so the computers must be doing something). Until you actually are settled in the car and push the Start/Stop button does the DC/DC converter come on to charge that battery, up until then you are draining the battery. My highest readings were after coming back from a day lone drive.

I am testing at the engine jump start terminal. Nothing is activated. The voltage reading is after being parked all night with the HVB cord plugged in and then unplugged. The reason for this (for me) test is to see how long the battery takes to drop to 50% SOC.

Eventually, I'll get to the parasitic load testing portion of testing. For now, I'm just looking at the trend on the 12V SOC %.

 

When the HVB is being charged, the DC/DC system charges the 12V battery. I charge my HBV every night. AFAIC, it should be able to keep the 12V battery SOC above 75%. It should keep it around 85 to 95, IMO.  Having a 12V batteries SOC below 75% will contribute to a shortened life span. A battery charging system that maintains a consistent 50% SOC in a daily driver has a problem, IMO. When the battery hits the 50% mark, I'll start the parasitic load testing part of this little adventure. Eventually, I'll put my lab scope on it and watch the trend for as long as the scopes buffer will allow.

 

Looks like my Pico Scope will give me about 14 plus hours of recording time :worship:


Edited by drdiesel1, 05 October 2013 - 11:02 AM.


#170 OFFLINE   drdiesel1

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 01:15 PM

So I was looking in my center console for something and noticed my thumbdrive LED would flash, stop and flash again.

I spotted it while the car was on yesterday, but didn't pay much attention to it.  This time the car is off. I have the Sony Audio

system and also have my iPod plugged into the second USB port. When I unplugged the iPod, the display screen flashed on.

 

Looks like I'll be doing the parasitic load to test next.  This could very well be why my 12V SOC drops to 50% over a short

period of time.  I'll run my tests ASAP.  I have a MTB ride tonight, so it will probably be tomorrow :smile2:



#171 OFFLINE   mcgyver68

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 02:34 PM

OK, so one month off the dealer lot, my charger showed 12.5 SOC, no load, and 75% indicated. So I ran the charger at 15 amps, yet within less than 5 minutes it showed 'FULL' and shut off. The math doesn't quite add up. I dunno... worth keeping an eye on I suppose.



#172 OFFLINE   jdbob

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 03:44 PM

Still having battery problems here. Only takes a day before the battery (after making sure it is charged by external charger) before it's down to 11.5 volts. Removed F67 in the BCM (Body Control Module - below glove box) and the voltage started to go back up, I suspect a parasitic load there. Unfortunately that fuse powers:

 

FCDIM (Front Control/Display Interface Module)

GPSM (Global Positioning System Module)

APIM (Accessory Protocol Interface Module)

TCU (Telematic Control Unit)

 

So that's a lot to go wrong! I know they are having problems with the APIM's (because of the warranty extension). I'll check to see if it's software is current once I put the fuse back in. Another possibility is maybe the TCU is trying over and over again to contact AT&T cell service, which it can't, because there is no AT&T service here. I would just as soon unplug it but that involves removing the left cargo compartment panel (thanks Ford!) which is far from a simple procedure.

 

I was thinking about getting something that could plug in to the fuse holder to be able to measure the current for that circuit. Found this:

 

http://www.amazon.co...f=pd_sbs_auto_6

 

But I doubt it would actually fit in the cramped space. They really should have made something that extended the bulk of it away from the fuse holder assembly.



#173 OFFLINE   drdiesel1

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 03:59 PM

Checked my voltage this morning after unplugging my USB and iPod for 2 days.  Today it was 12.64 volts.  I didn't read SOC.

I didn't have time.

I ran the car today and it's been on the 110 charger since 1PM.  I'll check the voltage and SOC later this evening.


Edited by drdiesel1, 11 October 2013 - 03:59 PM.


#174 OFFLINE   drdiesel1

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 04:08 PM

Still having battery problems here. Only takes a day before the battery (after making sure it is charged by external charger) before it's down to 11.5 volts. Removed F67 in the BCM (Body Control Module - below glove box) and the voltage started to go back up, I suspect a parasitic load there. Unfortunately that fuse powers:

 

FCDIM (Front Control/Display Interface Module)

GPSM (Global Positioning System Module)

APIM (Accessory Protocol Interface Module)

TCU (Telematic Control Unit)

 

So that's a lot to go wrong! I know they are having problems with the APIM's (because of the warranty extension). I'll check to see if it's software is current once I put the fuse back in. Another possibility is maybe the TCU is trying over and over again to contact AT&T cell service, which it can't, because there is no AT&T service here. I would just as soon unplug it but that involves removing the left cargo compartment panel (thanks Ford!) which is far from a simple procedure.

 

I was thinking about getting something that could plug in to the fuse holder to be able to measure the current for that circuit. Found this:

 

http://www.amazon.co...f=pd_sbs_auto_6

 

But I doubt it would actually fit in the cramped space. They really should have made something that extended the bulk of it away from the fuse holder assembly.

You'll need to allow the vehicles systems to sleep for accurate info. If your key FOB keeps the system awake, or the door is opened or anything disturbs the system, you'll get a false reading.  I would do it at the battery first, but you'll need a switch to properly perform the test.

 

You can't disconnect the battery and install the meter and test it.  You need to use the switch and not interrupt the systems voltage feed.

 

Here's a diagram using the switch and DVOM!Attached File  Untitled-1.jpg   27.27KB   0 downloads


Edited by drdiesel1, 11 October 2013 - 04:27 PM.


#175 OFFLINE   jdbob

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 05:34 PM

You'll need to allow the vehicles systems to sleep for accurate info. If your key FOB keeps the system awake, or the door is opened or anything disturbs the system, you'll get a false reading.  I would do it at the battery first, but you'll need a switch to properly perform the test.

 

You can't disconnect the battery and install the meter and test it.  You need to use the switch and not interrupt the systems voltage feed.

 

Here's a diagram using the switch and DVOM!attachicon.gifUntitled-1.jpg

 

Obviously after a day the vehicle systems are sleeping, or they should be.

 

I've ordered a 0.01 ohm current sensing resistor to make measurements a bit easier if I decide to go that far before taking it to the dealer. I'll put that between the chassis ground and the negative lead coming from the battery. I'll jumper the battery negative over to chassis ground, disconnect the lead from the chassis, insert the resistor between the lead and chassis, and then remove the jumper. My DMM can measure down to 0.0001 volts, which with a 0.01 ohm resistor would be 10ma.

 

If I can prove to myself that it's one of the modules fed by F67 that is not sleeping like it's supposed to then I'll probably just call up the dealer and arrange to take it in for that, and the stupid recalls. Unfortunately once they find the module they will probably have to order it, which could take quite a while. So it involves two all day (and maybe an overnight stay) trips.



#176 OFFLINE   drdiesel1

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 06:17 PM

Obviously after a day the vehicle systems are sleeping, or they should be.

 

I've ordered a 0.01 ohm current sensing resistor to make measurements a bit easier if I decide to go that far before taking it to the dealer. I'll put that between the chassis ground and the negative lead coming from the battery. I'll jumper the battery negative over to chassis ground, disconnect the lead from the chassis, insert the resistor between the lead and chassis, and then remove the jumper. My DMM can measure down to 0.0001 volts, which with a 0.01 ohm resistor would be 10ma.

 

If I can prove to myself that it's one of the modules fed by F67 that is not sleeping like it's supposed to then I'll probably just call up the dealer and arrange to take it in for that, and the stupid recalls. Unfortunately once they find the module they will probably have to order it, which could take quite a while. So it involves two all day (and maybe an overnight stay) trips.

They should be, but if you open the door.......It's allover.   Using the switch is the only recommended way to do it. 

You run the car and park it.

Wait about 20 to 30 min. and open the switch without disturbing (opening a door, ETC!) the systems and read the meter. 

Wait awhile longer and see what it drops to. Should be under 40 m/a. 

 

Are you using the USB port in the center console ????  I unplugged my USB thumb drive and iPod from the ports. My battery voltage was 12.64 this morning and the SOC was 70% this evening. I'm currently recharging the battery and will test the drop rate over the next 2 weeks.  The USB thumb drive was being pinged with the key off and the iPod was being charged. They both cause the audio system to stay awake, so I'm hoping this is the cause of my 50% SOC after a week or so.


Edited by drdiesel1, 11 October 2013 - 06:19 PM.


#177 OFFLINE   drdiesel1

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 06:23 PM

I also found this handy-dandy little display on my IDS :happy feet:

 

Attached File  20131011_184548.jpg   68KB   3 downloads


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#178 OFFLINE   jdbob

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 07:38 PM

They should be, but if you open the door.......It's allover.   Using the switch is the only recommended way to do it. 

 

Are you using the USB port in the center console ????  

 

The resistor is rated at 50 amps, I'm not worried about it. Hell, most switches are rated lower than that.

 

I am using the USB port for a thumb drive. I'll run a USB cable and see if the 5V stays on when it shouldn't once I power the infotainment computers up again.



#179 OFFLINE   jdbob

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 07:40 PM

I also found this handy-dandy little display on my IDS :happy feet:

 

attachicon.gif20131011_184548.jpg

 

That's pretty cool. Is that something most automotive repair shops would have?



#180 OFFLINE   drdiesel1

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 08:14 PM

That's pretty cool. Is that something most automotive repair shops would have?

Nope! It's the Ford OE scan tool. The same one the dealers use.... I have dealer level service at my indy shop for most car and trucks.






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