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Guest Message by DevFuse

Get you C-MAX Energi Registered in the official Ford Authorized Registry. More here.


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21 miles really, but estimates optimistic

ev range miles remaining

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17 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   tom_SD

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 08:33 AM

After driving our new C-max Energi a little over 800 miles and 35 charges, we still have almost 3/4 of the original tank of gas (Mmmm, dealer gas), and getting lots of good data on how the Energi behaves.  We commonly see an estimated 26 miles remaining just after a charge.  We have only run the battery to 0 miles four times, clocking 19.9, 20.0, 22.7, and 23.6 EV miles (average 21.55) each of those times.

 

Combining the estimated miles remaining with the actual EV miles driven at the time of re-charge gives a sense of total range performance/expectaion.  For instance, if I drive 18.8 EV miles and it says I have 4 remaining, I might infer that I had 22.8 total EV miles available, without depleting the battery completely to find out.  I trust such estimates more when few miles remain than when the battery is completely full.  Let's see how the Energy actually does:

 

Attached File  range.png   70.67KB   51 downloads

 

What we see in the plot above (may need to click to enlarge)  is that the Energi tends to be optimistic: early estimates approach 26 miles, while later (more reliable) estimates cluster around 22 miles.  If we fit a trend line, we find that the zero intercept is 21.2 miles, and the "optimism factor" is 17% (each actual mile remaining will be estimated as 1.17 miles remaining).  But on the whole, I am very pleased: 21 miles is truth in advertising.  We drive our car in a varied style: no repetitive (commute) path.  I would estimate that 40% of the miles are freeway miles.  We are not using climate control.

 

While I'm posting, I should update my charge performance data, as a follow-up to a previous post. Lots more data, and clustering tightly around a line that indicates 72% charge efficiency (takes 1.4 times as much wall-plug energy as battery energy) using the Ford-supplied charger at 120 V.  Note that a response in that thread had a plot with very large scatter.  I have not seen any indication of scatter.  It's getting boring enough that I may stop recording.  I am constructing a 240 V charger now (OpenEVSE) and will be able to add data on this behavior in the future.

 

So here are the updated plots.  I added a MPGe conversion scale on the kWh/100 mi plot. Note that the car reports values corresponding to the blue dots (around 130 MPGe), while the EPA rating uses actual wall-plug energy, corresponding to the green dots around 100 MPGe.  Our car is reporting about 133, while actually getting about 96 in the EPA sense.  And one final data point before I shut up: a 240 mile round trip to Pasadena, taking it easy for break-in reasons (60-65 mph), produced 47 MPG on gasoline!  Very happy about this!

 

Attached File  charge-update.png   83.36KB   53 downloads

 

Attached File  mpkwh-update.png   73.56KB   25 downloads


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#2 OFFLINE   larryh

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 09:01 AM

I created a chart similar to yours showing the plug-in energy used as reported by the car (in the Trip Summary/Odometer) vs. what was consumed from the power company measured using a Kill A Watt electricity meter.  However, my car is the Fusion Energi.  I get identical results to yours. 

 

I am using the 120 volt charger that came with the car.  I have the charge settings set to Charge Now.   If you use Value Charge, charging will be less efficient.  The car will consume 60 watts of power waiting to charge to power the on-board electronics.   Also, I have the EV mode set to EV auto.  The car depletes the battery before starting the ICE.  If you use EV later, the value reported by the car may not be accurate.  After my trip, I record the plug-in energy reported by the car in the Trip Summary/Odometer console display.  I then measure how much electricity was required to recharge the battery using the Kill-A-Watt meter.  As with your plot, the slope of the line is 1.3939. 

 

As you mentioned, you are supposed to use the amount of energy drawn from the wall socket to compute MPGe  The MPGe readings displayed by the car are inaccurate.  For a trip completely in EV mode, the actual MPGe is computed by dividing by 1.39.  So if the car reports 139 MPGe, the actual value is 100 MPGe.  I am not sure what the car is actually reporting in the Summary/Trip odometer display for plug-in energy.  I suspect it is the energy applied to the wheels.  The conversion losses for charging the battery and then converting the charge to mechanical energy are missing.

 

You can see my original post at:  http://www.fordfusio...o-recharge-car/

 

These results are only valid for the 120 volt charger.  It would be interesting to see what happens with a 240 volt charger and if it is more efficient.

 

 

med_gallery_520_36_35101.jpg


Edited by larryh, 05 July 2013 - 09:13 AM.


#3 OFFLINE   Tom_NC_1

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 03:00 PM

Great information. much more detailed than I would do. I do believe that my results line up with your data.

 

I did have a recent 327 mile round trip where I got 45.7 MPGe. Started with a full battery and did not recharge until the trip was completed. 80% of this was on the interstate traveling at or just under 65 mph and the temperature was around 90 degrees. I had three passengers in the car insisting that I have the air conditioning on. The passengers in the back seat still complained about being hot so I used the dual air conditioning controls to cool them more. This was the first extended use of the ICE since getting the car.

 

Needless to say that I am happy with the results although I would rather drive locally where using the ICE is the exception rather than the rule.

Attached Files


Edited by Tom_NC_1, 05 July 2013 - 03:09 PM.

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#4 OFFLINE   larryh

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 02:29 AM

Actually, there is a another energy loss that could affect the results above.  The battery looses charge over time.  However, for the Energi, this does not seem to be a problem.  I have let it sit over the weekend.  When I come to use it the following week, the battery remains 100% charged.  For other cars, this is a significant problem, i.e. the Tesla:

 

http://www.greencarr...ricity-at-night

 

When measuring MPGe, the car is supposed to sit overnight before driving it.  But for the Energi, this doesn't matter.  You will get the same results if you drive it right away.


Edited by larryh, 06 July 2013 - 02:33 AM.

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#5 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 09:32 AM

I used the Energi over the weekend and drove 23.5 miles using AC and the battery wasn't down to 0. It showed 0 miles remaining but hadn't switched into hybrid mode. At the beginning of the day the estimated range was 27 miles. If I hadn't been using AC all day I imagine it would have been no issue getting 27+ miles of range. After my first trip using AC the estimated range dropped to account for the AC use and I found it to be quite accurate.

 

AC use seems to have an impact on making the actual miles in EV be less than the projected range at the beginning.



#6 OFFLINE   dontfret

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 10:07 AM

The EV estimate is based on your past driving history.  AC or heat brings reality way down compared to projected estimate.  


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#7 OFFLINE   ITFlyer

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 08:22 AM

There are far too many variables involved for the car to have any chance of estimating with any degree of accuracy what the projected power draw of the AC will be. Is the car just heat-soaked, and the compressor needs to run until that initial heat load is dispersed? Or is it actually hot and sunny out, and it will require constant compressor run? Is it cloudy but warm now, but will become sunny 30 minutes into the drive? The difference in power draw between high AC compressor speed (in the range of 3.5 KW) and low AC compressor speed (around 0.5 KW) is substantial. At high speed, it could empty your fully charged battery in less than two hours without driving at all. At low speed, it would take almost 14 hours to do the same thing.


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#8 OFFLINE   Smiling Jack

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 11:14 AM

Please note:

 

1. The estimated range as displayed on the dash will change when the A/C is turned on or off. 

2. For me the difference is usually a 20% reduction (i.e., If the estimated range is 25 miles with the climate control turned off, then it is 20 miles when the A/C is turned on.)

3. In practice I sometimes see more reduction than this and sometimes less, depending, of course on how hard the A/C is working, but notably depending even more on how fast I am driving. 

 

As I have posted before, if you are averaging less than 10 mph or so in short hot trips in a heat soaked car, you can actually use more electricity cooling the car than propelling it, thus cutting your EV range more than in half.



#9 OFFLINE   JnTX

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 07:20 PM

I have also been looking at the charging efficiency and typically seeing a value in the 70% to 73% range.  That is comparing the energy that MFM says I used for driving to the kWHrs that I know the charger is using.  When I use up the EV part of the battery capacity, MFM is saying I used about 4.5 kWhrs of energy.  The battery is supposed to be 7.6 kWhrs and have 6.5 kWhrs available for EV mode driving and 1.1 kWhrs held for the hybrid mode.  If I am actually using and replacing 6.5 kWhrs, the charging efficiency is more in the 95% range.  I would actually expect the charging efficiency to be in the 80% to 85% range so I don't think MFM is reporting all of the energy that the car is using and the battery may only be providing about 6 kWhrs at this point in it's life.  I'm about to change to an L2 charger and expect that to be a few % more efficient.  However, I don't think we are getting the real efficiency when we use the energy reported by MFM.



#10 OFFLINE   honemch

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 07:23 PM

I have also been looking at the charging efficiency and typically seeing a value in the 70% to 73% range. That is comparing the energy that MFM says I used for driving to the kWHrs that I know the charger is using. When I use up the EV part of the battery capacity, MFM is saying I used about 4.5 kWhrs of energy. The battery is supposed to be 7.6 kWhrs and have 6.5 kWhrs available for EV mode driving and 1.1 kWhrs held for the hybrid mode. If I am actually using and replacing 6.5 kWhrs, the charging efficiency is more in the 95% range. I would actually expect the charging efficiency to be in the 80% to 85% range so I don't think MFM is reporting all of the energy that the car is using and the battery may only be providing about 6 kWhrs at this point in it's life. I'm about to change to an L2 charger and expect that to be a few % more efficient. However, I don't think we are getting the real efficiency when we use the energy reported by MFM.


Don't forget the 1 kWh that is never used and reserved for battery health.

#11 OFFLINE   drdiesel1

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 10:21 PM

It's an estimate. Driving habits will vary the estimates range widely. Higher speeds and heavy throttle will drop EV range quick.

I can get anywhere from 20 to 33 miles per charge. The estimate is based on the last EV range calculations and will always change.



#12 OFFLINE   larryh

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 11:36 PM

With the 120 Volt Charger, about 72% of the energy drawn from the wall outlet is actually used to power the car.  With a 240 Volt Charger, the ratio is about 82%.  The rest of the energy is lost, mostly as heat and to power the on-board electronics and fans while the car is charging.  It always takes more energy to charge any battery than you can extract from it to perform useful work.

 

The MPGe shown on the car console and MyFord Mobile are inaccurate.  To get the true values, you need to multiply by 72% for the 120 Volt Charger or by 82% for the 240 Volt Charger.

 

You are not going to get the full 7.6 kWh of energy out of the battery.  That is how much energy it stores.  The conversion from stored energy to mechanical energy is not 100% efficient. 

 

The following is a plot of the energy in kWh reported on the car's console vs. how much electricity in kWh is required to charge the battery using a 240 V charger (similar to the plots above for the 120 V charger).  According to this plot, 1/1.223 = 82% of the energy used to charge the battery is used to propel the vehicle.

 

med_gallery_520_36_6246.jpg


Edited by larryh, 08 October 2013 - 12:08 AM.


#13 OFFLINE   larryh

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 12:23 AM

The following is a plot of charging a fully depleted HVB using a 240 V charger.  The car's console showed 5.8 kWh of energy consumed.  It actually required 7.127 kWh of electricity from the wall outlet.  It took 2 hours and 10 minutes.

 

med_gallery_520_36_70517.jpg


Edited by larryh, 08 October 2013 - 12:24 AM.

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#14 OFFLINE   mikeb

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 04:21 AM

The battery is supposed to be 7.6 kWhrs and have 6.5 kWhrs available for EV mode driving and 1.1 kWhrs held for the hybrid mode.  If I am actually using and replacing 6.5 kWhrs, the charging efficiency is more in the 95% range.

I think your memory is off, there is only 5.5 kWh reserved for EV mode. You are correct about 1.1 kWh reserved for hybrid mode. The rest of the battery is kept unused for longevity. A full recharge will be 5.5 kWh plus roughly half of 1.1 kWh.


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#15 OFFLINE   GaryG

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 04:42 AM

I think your memory is off, there is only 5.5 kWh reserved for EV mode. You are correct about 1.1 kWh reserved for hybrid mode. The rest of the battery is kept unused for longevity. A full recharge will be 5.5 kWh plus roughly half of 1.1 kWh.

 

Don't forget I used 5.7kWh in EV mode for a total of 33.3 miles before hybrid mode. If you look at the photo in my gallery, you will see 21.? on my SOC to the right on my SGII. That means I also got .2 kWh extra from regen I think.

 

Gary


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#16 OFFLINE   viajero

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 02:47 PM

You won't always get 6.5 kWh out of the battery.  How much you get from a fully-charged battery until it's empty depends on the temperature and on how fast you discharge it.

 

When they spec a battery at, say, 10 kWh, that's valid at a certain discharge rate, usually 1C, or the kWh number for one hour.   In theory, the battery could put out 10 kW for one hour, 5 kW for two hours, 20 kW for half an hour, etc.  In practice, if you pull out energy faster, you don't get as much, so 20 kW would run the battery down in strictly less than half an hour, resulting in less than 10 kWh coming out.

 

Also, having a Scangauge I can see that "full" varies by a few percent from time to time according to the State of Charge parameter reported by the computer.

 

The kWh reported by the trip computer on the dash should be an accurate representation of how much electrical energy came out of the battery - that's a pretty simple quantity to measure.



#17 OFFLINE   DistortedEnergi

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 04:36 AM

My Kill A Watt meter with the 120v charger consistently reports using 7.49 kWh to charge an "empty" battery (0% on the car's Value Charging setup screen).  

 

With my OBD2Link and the Torque app, the HV Battery SOC display shows approximately 20% charge when the car is reporting 0%, doesn't that suggests about 6 kWh (7.6 * 0.8) available for EV Now mode?  (A 100% battery on the car's display is usually around 98-99% on Torque.)

 

I think it's interesting that the amount the charger pulls to charge the car is almost the exact amount of the stated capacity of the battery.  Odd coincidence, or something I'm missing?



#18 OFFLINE   Tom_NC_1

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 05:57 AM

Ford does not allow the battery to completely discharge to protect the battery. That is most likely why you see 20% when the car reports 0%.

 

From my experience I use 5.4 to 5.5 kWh to to use up a full charge. At that point an additional portion of the battery is available for hybrid operation.

 

I read that the 120v charger is less efficient (about 72%) than the 240v charger (about 80%).  I charged a depleted battery from a public charging station where kWh were displayed and noted that just under 7 kWh was needed. 7x.8=5.6kWh to the battery.

 

The comparison of energy needed from the wall and the actual capacity of the battery sounds like it is indeed coincidence. 











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