Jump to content

Custom Search




Welcome to the Ford C-MAX Energi Forum


Sign In  Log in with Facebook

Create Account
Welcome to the Ford C-MAX Energi Forum. You must register to create topics or post in our community - but don't worry this is a simple free process that requires minimal information for you to signup. Be apart of Ford C-MAX Energi Forum by signing in or creating an account.
  • Start new topics and reply to others
  • Subscribe to topics and forums to get email updates
  • Get your own profile page and make new friends
  • Send personal messages to other members
  • Create a photo album and post images. . .more.
Click here to create an account now.
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Get you C-MAX Energi Registered in the official Ford Authorized Registry. More here.


Photo
- - - - -

Scangauge X-Gauges Programming - C-Max / FFH


  • Please log in to reply
110 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   viajero

viajero

    Energi Member

  • C-MAX Energi Member
  • PipPip
  • 579 posts
  • Region:U.S. Southern Plains
  • LocationAustin TX
  • Current Vehicle:C-Max Energi

Posted 09 June 2013 - 03:44 PM

One reason I haven't had the engine start during EV mode is because my battery is cooler when I stop to charge it. I think you get problems with the engine starting after the battery exceeds 113F, but maybe someone here can confirm that now that we have a battery temperature x-gauge.

 

I've had 3 engine starts on non-empty batteries since I got the ScanGauge.  One at BaT of 113 F, one at 114 F, and one at 111 F.  The 111 F one was ramping up very fast, so maybe that's a criterion as well.

 

I prefer to drive with the windows down and the A/C off, so my interior temperature is mid 80s.  I'll try running with A/C and see what that does.

 

I don't know where the temperature sensors are for the climate control or the interior temperature reported by the ScanGauge.  My guess would be the climate control is somewhere near the driver's seat and the OBD report is near the battery air intake.  The ScanGauge temperature initially seems much warmer than it feels to me.  The air around me soon gets to a comfortable temperature and the A/C drops to a low power, but the ScanGauge interior temperature keeps gradually ramping down towards the climate setting.









Lose this advertisement by becoming a member. Click here to create a free account.

#22 OFFLINE   GaryG

GaryG

    Energi Member

  • Inactive
  • PipPip
  • 841 posts
  • Region:U.S. Southern Atlantic
  • LocationJupiter, FL
  • My C-MAX:Decline
  • Current Vehicle:'09 FEHL, '13 C-Max Energi 302A

Posted 09 June 2013 - 05:28 PM

I've had 3 engine starts on non-empty batteries since I got the ScanGauge.  One at BaT of 113 F, one at 114 F, and one at 111 F.  The 111 F one was ramping up very fast, so maybe that's a criterion as well.

 

I prefer to drive with the windows down and the A/C off, so my interior temperature is mid 80s.  I'll try running with A/C and see what that does.

 

I don't know where the temperature sensors are for the climate control or the interior temperature reported by the ScanGauge.  My guess would be the climate control is somewhere near the driver's seat and the OBD report is near the battery air intake.  The ScanGauge temperature initially seems much warmer than it feels to me.  The air around me soon gets to a comfortable temperature and the A/C drops to a low power, but the ScanGauge interior temperature keeps gradually ramping down towards the climate setting.

 

If you read that article carefully, Ford assumes you will be running the A/C with the windows up in the mid 80s. I've found the dirt and grime on the road will end up on the interior of your vehicle with the windows down. Running the A/C is a NO NO for hypermilers, but I'm not your normal hypermiler. I do what it takes!

 

Gary



#23 OFFLINE   viajero

viajero

    Energi Member

  • C-MAX Energi Member
  • PipPip
  • 579 posts
  • Region:U.S. Southern Plains
  • LocationAustin TX
  • Current Vehicle:C-Max Energi

Posted 14 June 2013 - 03:33 PM

I had always seen it above 99%, but then I'd always come out at least a couple hours after it said it finished charging.  Yesterday I went out just after it finished.  The glow ring was off, and the Scangauge said 95%.  As I was monkeying with it, it started charging up again.  It looks like after the initial charge it cools off and "bounces" a few times and eventually settles close to full.

 

Well, now I think my theory is wrong.  Yesterday I happened to be working in the garage as it was charging, and saw the light ring go dark.  I looked at the Scangauge, and the state of charge was 94.7%.  But, it kept increasing as the light ring stayed dark.  A while later I heard a relay click somewhere inside the car, and then saw that the state of charge was 99.1%.  From then on it stayed at that level.

 

So, now I think the charge ring going dark means "almost full", not totally full.



#24 OFFLINE   GaryG

GaryG

    Energi Member

  • Inactive
  • PipPip
  • 841 posts
  • Region:U.S. Southern Atlantic
  • LocationJupiter, FL
  • My C-MAX:Decline
  • Current Vehicle:'09 FEHL, '13 C-Max Energi 302A

Posted 14 June 2013 - 05:30 PM

Well, now I think my theory is wrong.  Yesterday I happened to be working in the garage as it was charging, and saw the light ring go dark.  I looked at the Scangauge, and the state of charge was 94.7%.  But, it kept increasing as the light ring stayed dark.  A while later I heard a relay click somewhere inside the car, and then saw that the state of charge was 99.1%.  From then on it stayed at that level.

 

So, now I think the charge ring going dark means "almost full", not totally full.

 

I've also been watching the charging process and keeping an eye on the SGII percentages also. Something is going on with incorrect miles on the battery level and the SGII SOC percentage. I read something awhile back that said the battery cells settle around after the battery gets to a full charge. The article suggested you charge just before you plan to drive the car and not let the battery sit full overnight. The battery works with a chemical process, so anything could be happening.

 

After I park at a location, I come back and see a lost of a mile or more on the OEM battery gauge after just a few minutes of being parked. My Escape Hybrid batteries didn't do that with the SGII, but they were not lithium batteries. I just need to study the Energi battery more to understand it like I did with my other hybrids.

 

It got to 94F outside temperature today when I stopped to recharge my battery. The battery was 109F after the charge and went to 111F after a few miles of driving. The cabin A/C took it down to 106F, but that took a few more miles to cool the battery that much. With the cabin A/C set at 71F, the cabin never dropped below 80F today. Dispite the hotter battery temperature, I was able to go more miles than the OEM battery gauge stated. 

 

Gary



#25 OFFLINE   viajero

viajero

    Energi Member

  • C-MAX Energi Member
  • PipPip
  • 579 posts
  • Region:U.S. Southern Plains
  • LocationAustin TX
  • Current Vehicle:C-Max Energi

Posted 15 June 2013 - 10:42 AM

I became curious enough to go out when I thought the charge was about to finish and see what happens.  I have a whole-house energy monitor that allows me to see (roughly) how much  power the charger is taking from the wall.

 

Yesterday it got to 94.7% SoC and then the light ring went out.  At that point the power pulled by the charger started tapering off over the next 4 minutes, from about 3.5 kW to about 0.5 kW.  The SoC got to 95.3%, and then I heard a relay click, the SoC immediately jumped to 99.0%, and the power draw dropped to zero.

 

Today the light ring went out just before 95%.  The power tapered off again, but not quite as rapidly.  This time the SoC kept going up to 99.9% and then it stayed there.  After a couple minutes at 99.9% the fans turned off and the power draw dropped to zero.

 

Based on those observations I now think the light ring shutoff represents the point where the charge current begins to drop, but the battery is topped off more gradually after that.

 

I'm also now guessing it does a periodic recalibration of the battery meter, which might explain the sudden jump in SoC.  It's not really possible to measure the state of charge of a battery directly.  You can only estimate it based on the battery's recent behavior.

 

http://www.mpoweruk.com/soc.htm

 

I remember some of my old laptops wanted to do an occasional recalibration of the battery meter, during which it would drain the battery all the way down and charge it all the way back up.  That deep cycle allowed it to judge the battery capacity, which changes with age, temperature, and usage.  Maybe the C-Max computer does something similar.



#26 OFFLINE   viajero

viajero

    Energi Member

  • C-MAX Energi Member
  • PipPip
  • 579 posts
  • Region:U.S. Southern Plains
  • LocationAustin TX
  • Current Vehicle:C-Max Energi

Posted 15 June 2013 - 10:49 AM

I also saw that the fans only run while charging, or very shortly thereafter.  It is able to drop the temperature even while running the fast charger.  With a garage temperature between 80 and 85 F, the battery dropped from 114 F when I parked to 104 F when fully charged.  The battery wasn't quite empty to start - the ICE had kicked in at 113 F as usual.

 

But, once the fans stop the battery temperature drops very slowly.  Now that I have a fast charger I suspect my EV driving in the summer will be limited not just by battery charge, but by battery temperature.  The battery needs not only to recharge between trips, but also to cool down between trips.  I wish there were an option to keep the fans on for some time after charging completes.



#27 OFFLINE   viajero

viajero

    Energi Member

  • C-MAX Energi Member
  • PipPip
  • 579 posts
  • Region:U.S. Southern Plains
  • LocationAustin TX
  • Current Vehicle:C-Max Energi

Posted 15 June 2013 - 03:37 PM

It turns out the fans do run after charging finished, just at a much reduced rate.



#28 OFFLINE   viajero

viajero

    Energi Member

  • C-MAX Energi Member
  • PipPip
  • 579 posts
  • Region:U.S. Southern Plains
  • LocationAustin TX
  • Current Vehicle:C-Max Energi

Posted 15 June 2013 - 03:43 PM

Here's a graph from the home power monitor of the charge ramping down.  This time it didn't start ramping down until the SoC was about 98.5%, a few minutes after the ring went dark at 95%.

 

Charge Ramp Down


#29 OFFLINE   GaryG

GaryG

    Energi Member

  • Inactive
  • PipPip
  • 841 posts
  • Region:U.S. Southern Atlantic
  • LocationJupiter, FL
  • My C-MAX:Decline
  • Current Vehicle:'09 FEHL, '13 C-Max Energi 302A

Posted 15 June 2013 - 05:10 PM

It turns out the fans do run after charging finished, just at a much reduced rate.

 

That's what I've determined also, but I've had my fans still ripping after the ring went dark. Now that you explained how to roll down the windows with the fob, I do that while I'm getting close enough for it to work. I get that cabin A/C going good before I roll the windows back up.

 

Don't forget the 12V battery plays a big part with HV battery SOC. The DC/DC converter will fill the 12V once the relays are activated. I know the relays take time (up to ten min.) to shutdown after key-off, so the 12V is still slowly draining. I've had posters tell me they disconnected the 12V battery to work on their FEH and the relays can't be shutdown by the PCM without the 12V grounded. As a result, the HV battery can continue to drain through the DC/DC converter powering systems not properly shutdown. Those battery fans should be running off the 12V battery system and the DC/DC converter. The battery fans shutdown in EV mode in the FEH, but that's not happening in the Energy. Can't wait for the Energi Powertrain/ED Manual is available.

 

Gary



#30 OFFLINE   mikeb

mikeb

    New Member

  • C-MAX Energi Member
  • Pip
  • 264 posts
  • Region:U.S. Southern Atlantic
  • LocationAtlanta, GA
  • Current Vehicle:2013 C-Max Energi

Posted 16 June 2013 - 04:51 AM

Guys, something to remember about charging a large lithium battery: the battery as a whole is composed of hundreds of cells, and the battery management system (BMS) is going to try to bring each cell to 'full'. And since each cell may have very slightly different physical characteristics, or exposure to temperature differences, each cell will reach full at a different moment.

 

Here's how the BMS works in my electric scooter: it does a 'bulk' charge at full current until one of the cells reaches a voltage threshold just below full. Then it slows down the charging rate to a near trickle and goes into 'balancing' mode. The BMS monitors the voltage on each cell watching for the actual full mark. As they hit the voltage cutoff one by one, it stops charging that cell and shunts the current around it. On my scooter, I've seen a bulk charge take 2 hours and then balancing go on for 6 hours, since the charge rate at the end is very low. Of course, I've pretty much got full range as soon as the bulk charge cuts off, but balancing the pack keeps the work evenly distributed between cells and lets the BMS get an accurate measurement of the battery SoC.

 

I'm certain the Ford guys are doing something similar in principle, but the exact process is going to differ. It sounds like they turn off the light ring and start balancing when the computer reaches the 95% mark. In the scenario viajero discusses above, the SoC was estimated by the computer to be 95.3%, but that estimate was based on counting energy-in vs energy-out. But as soon as the balancing process completed, you've reached 'full' based on voltage, so the computer resets it's calibration point. The next day, it was balancing again, but the computers estimate was very close to the actual state of the battery, so no jump was seen.


  • dr61 and hybridbear like this

#31 OFFLINE   viajero

viajero

    Energi Member

  • C-MAX Energi Member
  • PipPip
  • 579 posts
  • Region:U.S. Southern Plains
  • LocationAustin TX
  • Current Vehicle:C-Max Energi

Posted 16 June 2013 - 03:36 PM

Now that I have a fast charger I suspect my EV driving in the summer will be limited not just by battery charge, but by battery temperature.

 

Today I went for a bike ride downtown.  I barely made it there on battery power, with the battery temperature getting up to 107 or 109, I don't remember exactly.  I plugged in to a charging station at the community college.  Unfortunately that parking spot was in the sun.  After riding around for a few hours, I got back and found the battery was full, the interior temperature was 100 F, and the battery temperature was 114 F, already above the cutoff threshold.

 

Sure enough, the ICE started running immediately, and it ran in charge depleting mode from then on.  Going down a big hill or decelerating down an off ramp gave me no regen; the ICE spun up for engine braking even when the battery was almost empty.  The battery temperature worked its way up to 120 F before finally dropping back to 118 F as the A/C brought the interior temperature down.  By the time the battery was depleted, I had gone 26 miles at 72 mpg.

 

Given that the whole battery full of charge saved me about a third of a gallon of gas (comparing to 40 mpg I'd expect with an empty battery), I think next time it's this hot I'll choose a spot in the shade over one with a charger.

 

After I had been driving a while, the outside temperature reading settled to 99-100 F.  The A/C was eventually able to get the interior temperature down to 73 F, but only after I closed the vents below the MFT screen and opened the vents on the back of the center console.  Otherwise I was getting chilly and the interior temperature (per Scangauge) only got down to 77, reinforcing my belief that whatever sensor it's reading is in the back of the car somewhere.

 

When I got home I grabbed some things out of the center console and found they were super cold, probably from the A/C duct running through that console to the rear vents.  Note to self - this could be handy for keeping a drink chilled.


  • dr61 and hybridbear like this

#32 OFFLINE   jdbob

jdbob

    Techo Geek

  • C-MAX Energi Member
  • PipPip
  • 601 posts
  • Region:U.S. Pacific Coast
  • LocationJohn Day, Oregon
  • Current Vehicle:2013 C-Max Energi

Posted 20 June 2013 - 04:14 PM

I'm supposed to receive my Scangauge on Friday. Is there any difference between the white OBD connector behind the door on the dash versus the black OBD connector under the dash?



#33 OFFLINE   GaryG

GaryG

    Energi Member

  • Inactive
  • PipPip
  • 841 posts
  • Region:U.S. Southern Atlantic
  • LocationJupiter, FL
  • My C-MAX:Decline
  • Current Vehicle:'09 FEHL, '13 C-Max Energi 302A

Posted 20 June 2013 - 04:39 PM

I'm supposed to receive my Scangauge on Friday. Is there any difference between the white OBD connector behind the door on the dash versus the black OBD connector under the dash?

 

No, but you can't use the one behind the door without removing the door.

 

Gary



#34 OFFLINE   jdbob

jdbob

    Techo Geek

  • C-MAX Energi Member
  • PipPip
  • 601 posts
  • Region:U.S. Pacific Coast
  • LocationJohn Day, Oregon
  • Current Vehicle:2013 C-Max Energi

Posted 20 June 2013 - 05:33 PM

No, but you can't use the one behind the door without removing the door.

 

Gary

For a permanent installation it sounds like the black one is preferable while for non-permanent use the white one is easier to get to.



#35 OFFLINE   dr61

dr61

    Energi Member

  • C-MAX Energi Member
  • PipPip
  • 595 posts
  • Region:U.S. Pacific Coast
  • LocationRedding, CA
  • Current Vehicle:C-Max Energi, Mini Cooper S ALL4

Posted 20 June 2013 - 05:35 PM

I mounted my Scangauge today on the steering column recessed area; to see the display but allow full view of the dash I used a 1/4" approx. piece of high-density foam between the gauge and the column.  See picture:

 

CME SG 34

  • hybridbear likes this

#36 OFFLINE   dr61

dr61

    Energi Member

  • C-MAX Energi Member
  • PipPip
  • 595 posts
  • Region:U.S. Pacific Coast
  • LocationRedding, CA
  • Current Vehicle:C-Max Energi, Mini Cooper S ALL4

Posted 21 June 2013 - 06:32 AM

On my Scangauge the MPG parameter while driving in EV shows varying obviously incorrect numbers in the 200-800 MPG range.  What are other people seeing?  Maybe the Fuel Cutoff Level should be changed from the default 24?

 

(to answer my own question, it looks like a constant 0.06 Gallon/Hr fuel flow is being reported by OBDII in EV mode, and this is causing the MPG problem).


Edited by dr61, 21 June 2013 - 09:55 AM.


#37 OFFLINE   viajero

viajero

    Energi Member

  • C-MAX Energi Member
  • PipPip
  • 579 posts
  • Region:U.S. Southern Plains
  • LocationAustin TX
  • Current Vehicle:C-Max Energi

Posted 21 June 2013 - 03:10 PM

Some parameters return wrong values or don't update under certain conditions.  For example, the interior temperature always reads 419 when the car is turned off.  12V battery voltage always seems to be updating.



#38 OFFLINE   tlcj

tlcj

    New Member

  • C-MAX Energi Member
  • Pip
  • 28 posts
  • Region:U.S. Great Lakes
  • LocationNorthern Kentucky
  • Current Vehicle:2013 energi

Posted 26 June 2013 - 11:54 AM

Can you guys help me catch up a little in understanding. 

 

You need a scangauge 2 device to see these Energi values because they are special to our car and you need to program the xgauge to see them?  I was wondering if the same could be done with bluetooth adapters I see on ebay that hook to pc or droid?

 

I found a sheet on the Ford Escape hybrid on the scangauge website, but none of the codes matched what Gary had on the first sheet.  Where do we get these codes for the cmax if not on the scangauge site.  Are they in a service manual somewhere?  Are there more codes? I looked at the programming guide and just got the feeling I did not have enough information to get to where Gary was.

 

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.



#39 OFFLINE   viajero

viajero

    Energi Member

  • C-MAX Energi Member
  • PipPip
  • 579 posts
  • Region:U.S. Southern Plains
  • LocationAustin TX
  • Current Vehicle:C-Max Energi

Posted 26 June 2013 - 02:45 PM

I'm not sure if all the codes are "officially" published anywhere.  I've just found them on the internet and tried them and seen which ones work.  I don't know where the original posters got them.  They may be in service manuals or maybe came from Ford or dealer employees.

 

You'd have to look at the documentation for other adapters to see whether they allow custom codes or not.

 

One thing to watch out for is that some devices don't turn off when the car turns off.  I got one that worked with my phone but you had to manually flip a little switch to turn it off, otherwise it would stay lit up until your battery died.  Sooner or later I know I'd forget...



#40 OFFLINE   GaryG

GaryG

    Energi Member

  • Inactive
  • PipPip
  • 841 posts
  • Region:U.S. Southern Atlantic
  • LocationJupiter, FL
  • My C-MAX:Decline
  • Current Vehicle:'09 FEHL, '13 C-Max Energi 302A

Posted 26 June 2013 - 03:31 PM

Can you guys help me catch up a little in understanding. 

 

You need a scangauge 2 device to see these Energi values because they are special to our car and you need to program the xgauge to see them?  I was wondering if the same could be done with bluetooth adapters I see on ebay that hook to pc or droid?

 

I found a sheet on the Ford Escape hybrid on the scangauge website, but none of the codes matched what Gary had on the first sheet.  Where do we get these codes for the cmax if not on the scangauge site.  Are they in a service manual somewhere?  Are there more codes? I looked at the programming guide and just got the feeling I did not have enough information to get to where Gary was.

 

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

 

The Inventor of the SGII (James Delong) and I were trouble shooting the first Scangauge to work on the first Ford Escape Hybrid I owned in 2005. As I began posting on Greenhybrid.com about the Scangauge, and answering questions, more and more people started buying it. While I made no profit in the sell of the SG, I enjoyed helping people hypermile their FEH with the use of the SG.

 

I talk to James Delong about getting the SG to read battery level, but he said the SG was designed to be a generic tool for most cars and not specific to one. In 2007, James Delong redesigned the SG and called it the SGII. By this time, the SGII was selling like hotcakes to hybrid owners and hypermilers. James decided to buy a booth location and hold classes at the 2007 Hybridfest in Madison WI. I was invited to drive a friend's FEH and compete in the Hybridfest MPG Challenge, so I flew up there and won !st Place in that class of hybrid.

 

I got to meet and spend some time with James Delong talking about the new X-Gauge programming. Another Engineer friend of mine was tring to call James, but for some reason, James was not interested in talking to him (CarlD). CarlD had sent me a PM on how to program the SGII X-Gauge to read battery level and show it to James Delong. When I showed James the PM, he sceen the value of CarlD work and agreed to work with him. I wanted those codes posted on the SG website so every FEH owner could program their SGII X-Gauges. James agreed and that's how all this began. 

 

After my purchase of the Energi, CarlD ask me if I wanted the X-Gauge programming for the C-Max. I posted some codes Carl gave me in the beginning of this thread. Carl has now ask if I want more programming codes for the C-Max just the other day again. Do any of you want more information?

 

Gary 


  • hybridbear and Melephant like this








0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Privacy Policy TERMS OF SERVICE ·